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Post by Mo on May 20, 2003 15:58:08 GMT -5
To all of you, Right. Where should I start ? Copyright f1-live.com S.... It's a bit odd... the story of Tom Hurndall just gets to me (last time today on the telly at noon.) In a world where lots of people are reported to be killed every day (and everything's alright,) does a dead man's body kept alive for political purposes deserve to become a joke?
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Post by Damon Hill on May 20, 2003 16:24:42 GMT -5
Mo, I don't think that's what Srrh meant at all.
Damon Hill
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Post by smokingun on May 20, 2003 23:36:34 GMT -5
about time i jumped in.
daSilva, some of us are very pro-israel. just so you know, here in india i have seen what those bastards can do in the name of their religion and it disgusts me no end.
to all the foreigners who get shot in the west bank, well boo fucking hoo!! you have no business supporting terrorists. who started this shit in the middle east? why did israel need to create buffer zones to defend itself?? why did the arab countries see the need to band together and wipe israel off the face of the earth?? the troube with these peace activists is that some of them are down right stupid. where the fuck are they when the terrorists they love so much behead 4 year old children?? yeah yeah i know the terrorists are oppressed people and should not be blamed for what they do. you make me sick.
the way i see it: if you kill innocent people if you rape and kill women because they are non muslims or they are muslims who do not agree with your rabid ideals if you behead 2 and 4 year old children to teach a lesson to their parents or just because you are so fucking sick if you do all that and more... then, you cease to be human you give up all the rights you had to be treated with understanding and compassion you and your buddies are scum, a disease that the rest of us must deal with and deal with extreame prejudice. why?? because it make me feel good to see you bastards suffer. it helps ease the pain of imagining the fear and pain and utter helplessness that the 4 year old child felt just before you bastards beheaded him. if i had a chance i'll tear you to bits myself and let the vultures feed of you.
anybody else feels like stepping in the ring, be my guest.
mario
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Post by Henrik on May 21, 2003 1:37:06 GMT -5
about time i jumped in. daSilva, some of us are very pro-israel. just so you know, here in india i have seen what those bastards can do in the name of their religion and it disgusts me no end. to all the foreigners who get shot in the west bank, well boo fucking hoo!! you have no business supporting terrorists. who started this shit in the middle east? why did israel need to create buffer zones to defend itself?? why did the arab countries see the need to band together and wipe israel off the face of the earth?? the troube with these peace activists is that some of them are down right stupid. where the fuck are they when the terrorists they love so much behead 4 year old children?? yeah yeah i know the terrorists are oppressed people and should not be blamed for what they do. you make me sick. the way i see it: if you kill innocent people if you rape and kill women because they are non muslims or they are muslims who do not agree with your rabid ideals if you behead 2 and 4 year old children to teach a lesson to their parents or just because you are so fucking sick if you do all that and more... then, you cease to be human you give up all the rights you had to be treated with understanding and compassion you and your buddies are scum, a disease that the rest of us must deal with and deal with extreame prejudice. why?? because it make me feel good to see you bastards suffer. it helps ease the pain of imagining the fear and pain and utter helplessness that the 4 year old child felt just before you bastards beheaded him. if i had a chance i'll tear you to bits myself and let the vultures feed of you. anybody else feels like stepping in the ring, be my guest. mario Actually Smokingun, I don't feel like stepping in to the ring at all. However, I do feel like giving a short response to your post... When I read something like you have just posted, I get annoyed because it is something based on generalisation and total acceptance of a certain type of propaganda. The way that you have exressed yourself, you are coming across as accepting anything that the Israelis may do to the Palestinians because "they chop the heads of 2 and 4 year olds...". If that is truly your opinion, and I don't really beleive that to be the case, then one can't possibly discuss the situation with you. There is obviously some sort of reality behind the propaganda you have written, just as there is also some reality behind all the anti-Israel / anti-US propaganda generated by the Arabs. However, both remain propaganda, and not a proper depiction of reality.
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Post by smokingun on May 21, 2003 2:08:34 GMT -5
Henrik, these people are thought to hate. this i have learnt from my many muslim friends who thank fully still make up a large number of muslims and are educated enough to recognise a rabid mullah from a true religious leader.
the beheading of a child, i read in the papers yesterday. and while it happened in kasmir and not the middle east, there is no doubt in my mind that these bastards are all the same. i do not rate it as propaganda. many in the west like to *think* that india is a 3rd rate country ruled by tyrants and have fakirs and snakes. we have a free press that is openly critical of our government irrespective of which party comes to power. i do not suppose the indian government hires special FX people from the movies to create an illusion of a beheaded child to fool our reporters. is that the way you think?? all this talk about about propagand is BS. innocent people are dying. i want nothing more than peace. but i am tired of being the victim. with every passing day my anger and yes even my hatred increases. and i hate the kind of person that i am becoming but i can't help it.
to behead a child. yes that is something so noble now isn't it?? makes you feel all warm and fuzzy inside?? makes you feel sympathy for the "freedom fighters" who did this?? or perhaps you know it is wrong, but you can "understand their reasons" and still sympathise with them.
the jews are fighting for their survival. they are sorrounded by countries that hate them only because of their religious belifs, countries that in the past have joined together to attack israel. is the 6 day war propaganda as welll? what about the suicide bombers?? yessir ahm-a-fart is the biggest scam in the middle east. if the terrorism stops civilised debate can then take place. but these *must* guarantee for israel and the jews their long term security. guarantee that the mad ayotallahs and the mullahs do not wage another "jihad". unless you really understand the mindset of how islamic fundamentalism works, you can never fully appreciate the battle that the free world is up against.
smokingun
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Post by Henrik on May 21, 2003 2:48:44 GMT -5
It seems that one can't possibly debate the topic at hand given your current mindset.
I think it is fair to say that peace activists do not love terrorists, nor do they condone any terrorist acts. How could they? Any terrorist action goes against a peaceful solution, and both the actions of the terorists and the military actions as well as the colonizations by the Israelis are in complete opposition of a peacful resolution.
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SG after some hard games of tt
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Post by SG after some hard games of tt on May 21, 2003 4:42:45 GMT -5
hmmmm, i can understand your dilema henrik, ok let me try to put things in perspective. my ire lay in labeling of the horrific acts that these terrorists do as propaganda. when you say generalisation, i have to agree with you. i am generalising to an extent, and i think i am justified in doing so. when innocents are killed, do the arabs condemn such acts and when i say condemn, i am not talking about infront of the tv cameras. or do they rejoice on the streets? is it so wrong to generalise the whole lot of them or at least a majority of them as terrorists when clearly they have already decided what they are or where their loyalties lie?? people like rabin was voted by the jewish people, clearly a large number of jew wanted to live in peace with their neighbours. did it take just one visit of Ariel Sharon before he became PM to jeruselam to trigger the spate of killings? perhaps that visit was just the spark or the underlying hate and resentment and intolerance was already there?? now about the peace activists: they have no business being where they should not be. there is a very dirty war going on in the west bank and gaza and people will die. if you wish to have peace, try talking to the people who are really behind the hate. try and convince them to stop brainwashing the minds of young muslim children in their madrassas. try and reach out to the muslim community, work as teachers, teach human values, the idea that all men are equal and to be a kafir is not a bad thing. that other people have a right to worship as they choose or not to worship at all. i find it strange and ironic that the peace activists always take on civilised governments rather than those that practice terror. either they are misguided in knowing what they should fight i.e. the hate or they have more sinister objectives. maybe it is both. maybe the leaders / instigators have sinister objectives and the idiots that get shot in the occupied territories.. well they are just misguided i guess. i hope at least in the future, these people would be discouraged from experimenting in stupidity. about the israeli claims that they made a mistake: in war when you are edgy, when the opposing soldier dresses in civilian clothes but has bombs and the like, when you are angry when you hear about a loved one killed in cold blood, it is not unthinkable that the person in the cross-hairs will get a bullet. remove the root causes for all this, and maybe such mistakes won't happen. but please i do not beleive that this is israels government policy to kill non-terrorists knowingly. smokingun p.s. the beheading story: www.tribuneindia.com/2003/20030520/main1.htm
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Post by Henrik on May 21, 2003 7:10:21 GMT -5
Rabin was indeed elected by a majority, and was assasinated by a Jewish extrimist.
Sharon was elected by a majority, but a very small majority out of the people who chose to vote. Yes it was done according to democratic principles, but as was the case with Bush, there was certainly not more than 50% of the Israeli population who voted for Sharon. Now if I may ask, what do you know of Sharon's past? Are you familiar with his direct involvement in the Sabra and Chatila massacres? Sharon emobodies all that the Palestinians hate, and so it should come as no surprsise that his actions generate a violent response. He knows it, as does just about everybody else.
I would be the first to condemn an terrorist act, and I would believe so would anybodyelse who wants peace in the area. The people that are behind the terrorist acts clearly do not want a peacful resolution. However this is also true for the current Israeli government. By continuing the colonization, Sharon knows that he will simply generate more hatred and more terrorist actions in return. It is the opposite action to take if one wants peace. What can they possibly hope to gain by continuing the colonization, other than the support of the ultra-orthodox which helps maintain Sharon in his current position?
One of the reasons why I criticize the government of Israel is because they are a democratically elected and legitimate government, yet they continue with policies that are clearly anti-peace.
As the situation is today, neither Sharon nor Arafat wants peace. In my opinion they both need to go.
As to your generalisation, I will never think anybody is justified in doing that.
Just as a closing note. Do you know what it is like to be born, and then grow up in the current conditions of the occupied territories? It will never justify any terrorist actions, but it might help in understanding how some people become suicide bombers.
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Post by Danny Boy on May 21, 2003 7:12:57 GMT -5
. many in the west like to *think* that india is a 3rd rate country ruled by tyrants and have fakirs and snakes. we have a free press that is openly critical of our government irrespective of which party comes to power. In your wonderful country, with it's compassionate people and wonderful government and Free Press. How are the 200,000 victims of the Union Carbide at Bhopal getting along, living in comfort on their compensation payments???
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Post by who on May 21, 2003 21:37:55 GMT -5
whatever the legitimacy or otherwise of any state, a group of innocent people being blown to pieces in a shopping mall, or babies shot in their beds by extremists who value the death of their foe over and above their own lives, requires a kind of response that perhaps none of us are able to understand as we do not live with that threat. Is necessary to fight fire with fire as it were.
A peaceful resolution needs to be found, but the demands of some of the extremists which often involve no place at all for the state of Israel is of course ridiculous, just as full repatriation of all refugees to Israel can never be a realization. The state of Israel exists, will continue to exist and that has to be the first step to understanding that it is not going to disappear before there cna be peace.
Living side by side and not one or the other is the goal. Not all on either side are fanatical maniacs, but there seems to be an abundance of extremist maniacs who believe that the death of any Israeli will propel them faster to heaven, and unfortunately a large proportion who at least appear to be joyful at the success of any of those attacks.
its a sad world, but responsing to a determined fanatic in the conventional way, will not do a lot to prevent attacks.
Rabin? he was shot by an israeli extremist, but this guy had virtually no popular support. I would not believe you if you claimed any country had no racist fanatics. The sad thing is, when we are reaching majority proportions, I dont believe Israel, other than for their own security in the majority despises the palestinians like they are despised.
A famous quote from an Israeli I read once, there can only be peace when Palestinian parents learn to love their children more than they hate us. (referring particularly to an image of a gleeful and proud mother whose son had blown himself up killing several and maiming many others on a bus).
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Post by smokingun on May 22, 2003 0:20:31 GMT -5
In your wonderful country, with it's compassionate people and wonderful government and Free Press. How are the 200,000 victims of the Union Carbide at Bhopal getting along, living in comfort on their compensation payments??? and this bolsters your argument against india having a free press how? tell me danny boy, does it come as a shock to you to have to debate with an indian?? is there some reason you make yourself out to be intellectually superior?? i never claimed that india is not a pathetic corrupt country. but i do stand by my claim that we are a democratic country and do enjoy the priviledge od a free press, perhaps more so than most other western countries. if you really wish to take me up on that, bring it on. what you posted above is drivel as far as the present debate goes. mario
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Post by smokingun on May 22, 2003 0:24:21 GMT -5
A famous quote from an Israeli I read once, there can only be peace when Palestinian parents learn to love their children more than they hate us. (referring particularly to an image of a gleeful and proud mother whose son had blown himself up killing several and maiming many others on a bus). this is so very true. what bothers me the most is that the cycle of hate can only get worse. every act of hate only pushes the two communities further apart. i agree with Henrik about Sharon. what we really need are courageous leaders on both sides in order to reach a settlement that would be just to all. smokingun
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Post by Srrh on May 22, 2003 7:53:10 GMT -5
Hmmm. To all those concern, I am starting to dislike profoundly the fact that every time we exchange about Israel, the shit hits the fan... Yet I don't think we should stop simply because some of us can't control their hormones. I've seen US bashing on this site, reaching proportions much higher then this, yet I've never seen any reactions (including those of our american SC brothers) be so emotional... Maybe because "god" is involved...can't discuss when people's hears are full of "god". Or Maybe RX, Tc and co. are just much more mature then others... Either way, it matters not... So, please, pretty please with a cherry on top, be carreful about hateful generalisations and/or attacking other Croakers on a personal level... Or I'll go get my shot gun ! PS Justan; who is Joseph ? (and Eddie for that matter)? I remain, Srrh
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Post by smokingun on May 22, 2003 9:31:12 GMT -5
Hmmm. To all those concern, I am starting to dislike profoundly the fact that every time we exchange about Israel, the shit hits the fan... Yet I don't think we should stop simply because some of us can't control their hormones. sheesh!! ok, hint taken. i'll say no more. enjoy your trip to disney world smokingun
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Post by Srrh on May 22, 2003 10:01:28 GMT -5
ok, hint taken. i'll say no more. Smokingun, That not what I meant at all (and I am pretty sure you know it). I just don't want my beloved forum to be, yet another victim of that hateful and vengefull conflict. Furthermore, I don't think it would help either side one bit (unless of course Sharon and Abu masen are members of Shamu) if we tore each other a new one!! PS I was shitting you about my shot gun. I wanted to buy one from Rx but I got a big cement pipe instead...lol I remain, Srrh Emperor of the known Universe through the power of Shamu.
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