|
Post by smokingun on Mar 20, 2003 23:40:11 GMT -5
wycco, "moderate leaning towards the right" hell yeah. for years i have always wondered about my own political leaning, i tend to go far right, but then i also hate to see people die or get injuered. i think i have the right term to describe myself now. if the range of the missiles exceed the prescribed limit, and iraq did indeed fire them, both of the above i beleive to be true, then the war is justified. about the us/uk/ozzie forces not meeting any resistance, i don't think this has anything to do with the first strikes causing significant damage, rather i beleive, the iraqi forces simply were never in a position to fight back. this may change as the allies approace bhagdad. in any case basra was a citie tradionally opposed to saddam. the iraquis are showing pictures of injured civillians on tv. 2 of them that i saw were kids. it makes me sick. i know that the US is doing all it can to reduce colateral damage. but even to call injured/killed civillians/children as "colateral damage" makes me sick. these are living people. and dubya has as much responsibility as does saddam for any harm caused to them. smokingun
|
|
|
Post by Wycco on Mar 21, 2003 8:48:51 GMT -5
Oh I watch what ever is on... Fox News (even though it leans to the right), MSNBC occasionally (even though it leans FAR to the left... worse than Fox), CNN, CNN HLN...
From the internet I read FARK (clippits from all places), and BBC (although neither much lately- too busy)...
Mostly though, I keep my radio tuned to news/talk radio- I think it provides better information because they don't have to worry about "Eye Candy".
BTW the radio news I listen to most is provided by ABC.
|
|
|
Post by Topcontender on Mar 21, 2003 10:31:07 GMT -5
8 british and 4 americans dead in a Helicopter crash. Oliver North has the thing on tape. Looks like bad weather.
1 marine is dead in a fire fight.
B-52s left the UK hours ago, This looks like the Shock and Awe.
We have got cities in western Iraq and Souther Iraq, including the airbases.
BTW- is Northern Iraq really pretty? I saw a CNN guy up there and the place looked lush and very green kind of likethe area around the Giza plateau
|
|
|
Post by daSilva on Mar 21, 2003 11:04:30 GMT -5
CBC CBC Newsworld CTV ABC MSNBC CNN
|
|
|
Post by Henrik on Mar 21, 2003 11:22:00 GMT -5
For TV:
TSR1 (Swiss French) France2 CNN MSNBC MTV (Umm, no! Mind you, there is a Lebanese channel called MTV) BBC
However, mostly I get news feeds on the internet from the major news providers AP, AFP, Reuters etc., and I like to read in the morning Le Temps (a very good local newspaper) and if I have time FT. Newsweek brings some interesting weekly perspectives too. Surf around also on numerous more biased news sites from the middle east, both Arabic and Israeli. Then there is Autosport, Auto Hebdo, F1 Racing .....
|
|
|
Post by pabs on Mar 21, 2003 11:28:05 GMT -5
Hey Pabs, Thanks for having taken the time. 1)YES. 2)Again, yes. (stop making my arguments for me.lol) Although I am not sure of their acceptance. 3)I can see that. In this case Iraq was punched in the nose. But I can see the argument of self-defence. 4)Again yes. But you have to admit it’s a pretty sad: our societies, reduced to being compared to ants and bees… 5)Oh, I but I do blame the civilians…Maybe you missed my opinion of Georges’ war. Lol 6)And this is not one of them. Regime changes is not an extreme case. It’s realpolitiks, geostrategy, imperialism, called it what you will: it is NOT an extreme case. 7)And I don’t ? ROFL 8)So did all the SS in 1942. And every French soldier under Napoleon, and every roman legionnaire under Cesar. Tell me when soldiers didn’t believe they were fighting a just cause? 9)de tocqueville? Rousseau? Anna Arendt ? As I stated previously, the only interference I ever got from soldiers was during a coup. I don’t think freedom is a military term. When I lived in Br. I use to play Soccer. We use to have to leave stadiums in different groups because the military police could (and would) open fire on any group larger then twelve. Thus The soccer team (including replacements) had to travel in smaller groups. That’s the army… The company’s nurse had her daughter kidnapped by a military death squad. One night (in 81) they rang her door bell, she was escorted in a military vehicle and…never heard of again…Today, 22 years later, the state still doesn’t acknowledge the event. It destroyed the woman’s life. That was also the army… Inversely, when Tancredo Neves was elected president: CARNIVAL FOR A WEEK. For me, the news are never as good as when I hear a suicide bomber blew up on his own device, dying, yet injuring no-one lese. Or when 300 Iranian guards of the revolution crashed with their plane in the desert. Like wise for the army… As Danny Boy reminded us: What would happen if they called a war a no one showed up? I’d like to see that before I die. I’d like to see our “great” leader face’s when they’d realise that we, peons, are not just ground beef. S… Hey Srrh, also thanks for taking the time. I guess I'd like to start out by saying that the intent behind my post was point out that people in the military are acting on orders from "higher powers." American and Iraqui soldiers alike, they are the least responsible for the current state of affairs so I don't think anyone should say there should be 100% casualties. 2) I do think military personnel (at least here in the US) know what they are getting into because they are volunteers. To my knowledge, this is taught to every officer-in-training (cadets or midshipmen as we call them here) while they are still at the Academy. 4) Yeah it is a bit sad, but I think much can be learned from nature. Have you ever read the book "Starthip Troopers"? (the movie sucked, only good thing was Denise Richards ;D). Though the book is basically a novel, many lessons about the nature of war and the relationship between the military and their civilian "masters" can be learned it. In fact, it was required reading for our "Morality and War" class at the Air Force Academy. One of the points the author made, and one I think you'd be interested in, is that true communism can only be achieved by societies that have evolved into it (ants, bees, termites). 5) I know you blame civilian leaders more than anyone else. Again, I just don't think we should wish anyone's death. Obviously soldiers are not blame-free, but I really think that in most cases, they truly believe they are fighting for a higher cause. 6) Don't tell anyone but I almost would agree I think the US and Britain rushed into this war a little bit. This is not saying that I don't agree with the war because I do believe Saddam needs to be ousted from Iraq. But perhaps we didn't exhaust every possible diplomatic solution. But now the US and Britain are committed and they get my full support so that this war can end soon. 7) Again, I know you do and I agree. 8) Well there's a few cases in history, especially those involving armies built up by drafts (eg. Vietnam and even some soldiers in Colombia). But in most volunteer armies, that is not the case. 9) Colombian General Francisco de Paula Santander said once (roughly translated): "Arms have given you Independence, Laws will give you order". There have been many revolutionary and independence wars throughout history. At least, I know I have to thank those soldiers for fighting so bravely for our independence (and hence freedom) from Spain.
|
|
|
Post by glendo on Mar 21, 2003 13:50:30 GMT -5
accident? yeah right. US/UK media or military would never say:
US helicopter shot down by the enemy...
it was just an accident.
|
|
|
Post by Topcontender on Mar 21, 2003 16:06:48 GMT -5
Gelndo- normally i would agree, but they were in Kuwait and oliver North is a news reporter who calimed no shots were fired.
BTW- another Marine dead
CNN- has been kicked from Baghdad
The coverage of this war is nuts! you get ride alongs, video feeds of palaces blowing up, and so on. All they need now is teh saddam pocketcam to be in the meetings
|
|
|
Post by CFF on Mar 21, 2003 16:26:59 GMT -5
I'm beginning to wonder if Saddam wasn't killed (or injured) in the decapitation strike 48 hours ago ..... ? Seems to me there's been very little in the way of top-level mangement of Iraqi responses since then ... and ... as has been pointed out by various news agencies ... the Iraqi's seem to be a military without any commander.
Strange ......
CFF
|
|
|
Post by Topcontender on Mar 21, 2003 17:09:33 GMT -5
U.S. intelligence officials believe Iraqi President Saddam Hussein was hurt – if not killed – during the first coalition airstrike in Baghdad.
Officials told ABC News that witnesses observed the dictator being carried out on a stretcher from the bombed residential complex with an oxygen mask over his face.
An official told Sky News Saddam was believed to be "at least injured because medical attention was urgently summoned on his behalf."
A U.S. official told The Washington Times last night that there is no doubt that Saddam was meeting with top Iraqi leaders, including military commanders and his two sons, Uday and Qusai, in the building that was struck by two bombs from an Air Force F-117 stealth fighter in the first "decapitation attack."
"The preponderance of the evidence is he was there when the building blew up," a senior member of the Bush administration told the Washington Post.
Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld told reporters at a press conference today the strike was "no doubt successful" but he didn't know whether Saddam Hussein remained in control of Iraq.
"I hear scraps of information," Rumsfeld responded when asked whether the leadership of Iraq had changed hands, "And you can be certain if I had sufficient number of scraps that it began to make a persuasive case, that I would opine on it."
There are intelligence reports that Saddam's elder son, Uday, was killed. The condition of his other son and the others in the compound is unknown.
State-run Iraqi television broadcast a taped message from Saddam hours after the bombing. The Iraqi leader wore reading glasses and read from a prepared text urging Iraqis to resist the invaders and draw their swords.
|
|
|
Post by JWK on Mar 21, 2003 18:52:39 GMT -5
Congrats to everybody on a great thread.
It seems we are now seeing the first signs of the unpredictable political climate this conflict is undoubtedly bringing. Turkey has given the all clear for the US to use its air space, whilst at the same time readying its troops to make an incursion, possibly a prolonged one into northern iraq. Whether it be out of fear of the Kurds getting ambitions to form their own state, or to secure oil fields which are vital in driving their own economy or simply to get a foothold in iraq to gain bargaining power with the US, it is certainly not what the thinkers in washington had predicted.
As to the decapitation strike, if it worked and saddam is indeed dead then whoever orchestrated the attack deserves everybodies applause, as that may make this conflict a short one.(well, even shorter then it would have been anyway) If it did not work(and i am somewhat sceptical that it did) then the 'dead air' is entirely predictable. Saddam will know of the digital ability the 'coalition of bling bling' to eavesdrop on any communications attempts and hone in on the location, and would be stupid to make any statements, issue direct orders or god forbid make a public statement. As for the high lever commanders and the like, i think after seeing the speed at which bombs were honed in the decapitation strike are now not wanting to make any uneccesary(sp... hold on...what was Wycco's rhyme?never eat cold chicken eat salmon sandwiches and retire young??) communication, as has been said allready, they dont like to be put in the line of fire themselves.
I don't think it is unusual that the coalition[sic] is meeting little in the way of resistance, if i can call back to a very early prediction of mine i think that iraqi forces have holed up inside the main cities and will not try to battle a far superior military on a level playing field. As despicable as it is, they will try to force the US to take as many civilian casualties as they can, and televise the results.
I think that although the war has been justified morally allready in the removal of a downright bastard of a man from power, but that cannot be the end upon which you claim victory, the ways in which this will be achieved will have long lasting consequences that will make us all question(if we are not allready) just how much good came from this action as opposed to bad.
|
|
|
Post by JWK on Mar 21, 2003 19:00:34 GMT -5
BTW-
BBC ABC CNN DW(german show but read in english) And i make sure to check the UN site every now and then.
|
|
|
Post by glendo on Mar 22, 2003 1:29:36 GMT -5
this war seems more like a tv show?
saddam may well be alive... he just hasnt got the time to be on TV... which is understanable when your country is being turned to swiss cheese.
|
|
|
Post by Topcontender on Mar 22, 2003 12:28:29 GMT -5
Yeah this is like a F-ed Up TV show. Like i said they need a saddam pocket cam.
Anyone get the feeling of hide and go seek? The TV audience should know where saddam is and we should watch the military try to find em.
Sick thought i know but this is very strange.
BTW- Austrailia shot its first weapon at another nation last night. First time since Vietnam
|
|
|
Post by JWK on Mar 22, 2003 19:09:42 GMT -5
Sick indeed, even a journalist from CNN last night reported that he suspected some of the bombs falling on baghdad had been directed to where they would give the most spectacular images to all the journalists in the main journaist hotel. Also one thing that i find disgusting is the edited clips which have enigmatic and patriotic music overlaying images of fire, explosions, troops and the injured... This isn't a Sylvester Stallone film, stop romanticising the hideous images of war. Its like 24 hour prime time TV
|
|