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Post by BrainFade on Feb 1, 2003 14:13:42 GMT -5
Well, a simple enough question... let the voting begin.
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Post by RacerX on Feb 1, 2003 21:41:14 GMT -5
BrainFade,
I don't mean this negative to you, but personally for me, I find war repulsive & the eppitomy of ignorance. Unfortunately, some people can only be delt with in an ignorant manner (read: Saddam).
If that dumb bastard hasn't gone into exile in a few weeks, I'm confident the US will get real stupid with him, and anyone in Iraq that stands beside him. This might sound arrogant, but I feel it's without a doubt a war Saddam can not win. Thus suicide for him not to go into exile.
I'm sure he's ticked about not being able to run his own country the way he thinks best, but his way is not acceptable. Yes, it's alot more complicated than this, but it's kind of what it boils down to in a menial way.
To make a long story short (damned near impossible for me, huh?LOL) I'm trying to say that I'm not going to vote on this one. As a way to protest what I'm affraid is about to happen.
Lives will be lost, and innocent ones at that. It's messed up.
Wuff (out of frustration), RacerX
P.S. I must add, that if the US does strike Iraq, I will be 100% supportive of the military personnel that are sent into conflict. I might not like the fact that they're there, but I will be supportive that each, and every one come home safe.
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Post by daSilva on Feb 1, 2003 23:08:21 GMT -5
I will not vote!
I don't believe war is as simple as yes or no.
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Post by Wycco on Feb 2, 2003 10:30:20 GMT -5
Saddam needs to be removed, not because he is a threat to us... because quite frankly hes not... unless we attack him... he knows the slightest slip up, slightest involvement in terrorism and hes toast... yet if we attack him... he knows he will lose- and so he is likely to use weapons of mass destruction against us...
Personally- I think sending an assassin after him and his son makes much more sense... less innocents die that way!
However, if we won't send an assassin... then yes war is needed... But I would prefer alternative methods!
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Post by smokingun on Feb 2, 2003 23:49:32 GMT -5
against war: alot of people outside the US and the UK, feel that the war in more about the Iraqi oil, rather than saddam.
saddam has traditionaly been a very moderate muslim leader, the sort that the world can do with vis a vis the fundamentalist ideals.
if the iraqis stand firm this time unlike q8, here they are defending their homes, then we could see a lot of people dying. sure most would be iraqis, but they are still people just like you or i, and they will be defending against an external aggressor.
the weapons inspectors have come up with zilch this time around.
----------------------------------------------
for war: no leader(sic) who commits genocide and mass murder against inoocent people should be allowed to stay.
the sanctions would end, iraqi children would not have to die in the thousands.
it's a tough call, and i hope bush knows what he is doing. blair?? well who's he???
anyone remember the movie "history of the world"? if they make a sequel and need a "pissboy" they know where to find one.
smokingun
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Post by Wycco on Feb 3, 2003 15:29:47 GMT -5
Saddam a moderate leader?
He has been actively developing a military state since he took office! He, much like Bush, is a warmonger...
Remember a little thing called the Iran-Iraq war. When Kuwait provoked him by drilling under the border to get Iraqi oil- he sent in his legions and took over the little nation. Lets not forget he attacked seperatist Kurds with gas...
I'm sure, were it not for being encircled by US troops- the last 10 years of Iraqi history would be as bloody as the rest of Saddams regime.
... this is not a contender for the nobel peace prize- he has been far more militant than any other muslim nation.
However, Bush has 2 arguments for war...
1) He calls Saddam a threat. Not so... not to us... perhaps to Israel and the rest of arabia... his only way of reaching us is through terrorism- and I think he is aware- one false move and Baghdad will be a prime spot for building windmills!
Several nations pose more of a threat to the US... North Korea springs to mind.
2) He claims Saddam is breaking US resolutions. LOL- true and valid- this perhaps the only valid context for war. However, the US using this argument is laughable- no one has broke more UN treaties and resolutions than the US- and the US's close ally, Israel!
I'm not totally against war- nor for it. I think Bush's arguments are backwards... yet no doubt the middle East would be a better place without Sadman Whosinsane... As I said before- I think an assassination attempt- or a missle launched into Saddams bedroom window whilst he slept would cause a lot less innocents to die- and remove SH from the picture...
Hopefully his son would be wise and head for the hills! (or get assassinated himself!
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Post by glendo on Feb 3, 2003 19:41:08 GMT -5
NO war!
i am gobsmacked that 2 people believe the USA should attack WITHOUT UN mandate!
is it not a UN mandate that america is jumping around for iraq to comply with, yet will ignore the rules itself?
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Post by smokingun on Feb 3, 2003 23:02:10 GMT -5
i have my doubts about the UN in choosing between what is right and what is popular. one never knows the full extent of US intelligence, perhaps they do know the full extent of saddams capabilities. the guy did launch his scuds against israel for no friggin reason, and thankfully there were no chemical/bilogical or nuclear warheads on them. the sooner the americans are done with him, the sooner iraqi civillians will get access to much needed food and medicines.
wycco, i cal saddam a moderate only from the islamic fundamentalist point of view. and i base my remarks mostly because he did stand up to ayatolla khomeni. of course after the gulf war, one could well imagine him being pushed into the fundamentalist corner caused by isolating him and his people.
saddam certainly does not deserve the nobel peace prize, but then neither do bush or his dad or the pervert that ruled the white house between them.
smokingun.
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Post by Wycco on Feb 4, 2003 9:10:30 GMT -5
but then neither do bush or his dad or the pervert that ruled the white house between them. jejeje... he was between a few other people too... ;D
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Post by daSilva on Feb 4, 2003 10:02:25 GMT -5
Smokingun,
You say that Saddam launched Scuds on Israel for no reason. That is not entirely true, there is a lot of history between Israel and the Arab nations around it. One example is when Israel destroyed an Iraqi Nuclear reactor in 1981 after Iraq had purchased it from France and before it was brought on line. In retrospect it was probably a prudent thing to have done but it WAS destroyed unprovoked.
Furthermore, this begs the question of how negligent was France for selling such devices? France also has a history of selling weapons to whomever has the money at the time.
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Post by Wyccco on Feb 4, 2003 10:57:31 GMT -5
Actually, during the Gulf War- I don't think Saddam's motivation for sending Scuds to Israel was revenge...
I think it is much more likely he was trying to provoke Israel to attack- thus triggering off the "Holy War" that he was trying to get the rest of the Arabic world to join him in (so he wouldn't get his butt kicked by the U.S et al.)
I've no doubt Saddam would love to have the extra parking space to his west... but I think he was attacking Israel to take the heat off himself.
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Post by daSilva on Feb 4, 2003 11:19:45 GMT -5
I don't disagree with that evaluation at all Wick. I think you are dead right. But in saying that you HAVE given Saddam a reason for doing what he did, and like I say there is history. I wish he would just go into exile.
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Post by Topcontender on Feb 4, 2003 14:25:09 GMT -5
Saddam's senior bodyguard has fled from Iraq with details of Saddam's secret arsenal. His revelations come the day the UN inspectors report to the Security Council whether they have found a smoking gun that will trigger war. Abu Hamdi Mahmoud has provided a list of sites that so far the UN inspectors have not visited. They include: An underground chemical weapons facility at the southern end of the Jadray Peninsula in Baghdad. A Scud assembly area near Ramadi. The missiles come from North Korea. Two underground bunkers in Iraq's Western desert. These contain bio weapons. William Tierney, a former UN weapons inspector who has continued to gather information on Saddam's arsenal, described Mahmoud's information as "the smoking gun. Once the inspectors go to where Mahmoud has pointed them, then it's all over for Saddam". Tierney still has high level contacts in Washington that reach into the White House. He said that the information we publish today on Mahmoud's revelations "checks out, absolutely checks out." Tierney believes it is "inevitable" that we will go to war. Globe-Intel has independently obtained documents smuggled out of Iraq which show he does have weapons of mass destruction that have eluded discovery by UN inspectors. The weapons include motorised underwater mines capable of creeping along the sea bed and then surfacing beneath a battleship or carrier. Each mine is filled with chemicals that upon explosion can envelop the ship in a deadly cloud of poison. The documents show that the mines and other weapons of mass destruction have been secretly developed at sites the UN inspectors have also not visited. These are: Al-Qaqa's State Establishment. Sixty miles south of Baghdad, it has produced what the documents describe as "self-detonating precise guided missiles". Near State Establishment. It is on the western side of the Baghdad-Mosul road. It has produced "artillery rounds and other machined metal parts" for the mines. The mines have been machine-finished at Hateen State Establishment, to the north of Baghdad. In the past weeks, they have been moved to Basra - ready to be launched against the naval armada assembling in the Gulf.
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Post by Topcontender on Feb 4, 2003 14:25:20 GMT -5
One document reveals: "The mines use a special camera to distinguish the target above it. The mines then stop under the target. Once in place they produce chemical materials which generates huge amounts of oxygen that guides the mine to the surface. When the amount of oxygen reaches a specific level, the pressure of the oxygen triggers the detonator which results in a tremendous explosion". The documents reveal that test firings of the mine were carried out on Lake Tharthar on June 5 last year. The tests are described as "completely successful". Mahmoud's revelations have also enabled both George Bush and Tony Blair to take an even stronger stand against anti-war protesters when they meet in Washington this week. Mahmoud was a member of the elitist unit charged with protecting Saddam. It is called the Murasiq Qun - the "Inner Circle". He was known as "The Gatekeeper". Mahmoud is the muscular Saddam lookalike who is always photographed standing either behind Saddam when he is seated - or to his left when on the move. He was trained to spot the slightest threat to Saddam. To deal with it, he had a throwing knife up his right sleeve. "In any threat my first job was to throw myself over Saddam to protect his body and then use my knife", he has told his Mossad debriefers. Now he's at the top of Saddam's kill list. But there is no way Saddam's own assassination unit - the Hamaya Khasa - can get to Mahmoud. He is now protected by a team of Israeli agents. For weeks he was in secret negotiation with a Mossad agent in Baghdad. With the promise he could not be charged with any crimes he committed on behalf of Saddam, and he would be given a new identity - including having his appearance changed by surgery - Mahmoud agreed to desert. Last week he was being debriefed in a high security base in Israel's Negev Desert. Ariel Sharon, the country's hard-line prime minister has so far only allowed snippets of Mahmoud's sensational claims to be shared with the CIA and MI6. But a source close to Sharon says he wants to use the revelations when, as expected, he returns to power after the country's election (tomorrow, Monday). "Sharon intends to shatter the growing anti-war movement. He plans to call all those European leaders who are wavering to let them know how Saddam has continued to fool Hans Blix and his inspectors," said the source. Mahmoud's revelations include: Locations of five bunkers buried beneath purpose made sand dunes. Stockpiled in the bunkers are warheads identical to the empty shell cases found two weeks ago by the UN inspectors. Mahmoud has claimed those shells were on their way to be refilled and stored in the bunkers. A portion of a transcript from his debriefing includes: "Saddam's weapons of mass destruction are also concealed in a tunnel complex deep beneath the sewers of Baghdad and in an underground complex in Ouja, to the north of Tikrit. The complex was build five years ago with help from Chinese engineers. "The actual entrance to the site is through a house in Tikrit. It is the home of one of Saddam's cousins. The entrance is over half a mile from where the weapons are stored". Mahmoud has also provided the first really detailed insights into how Saddam lives and is protected. Mahmoud says since the Gulf War there have been nine assassination attempts on Saddam. The most recent was in February last year.
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Post by Topcontender on Feb 4, 2003 14:25:52 GMT -5
Mahmoud has described how he was selected. "I was on gate duty at one of Saddam's palaces. One night he arrived in a 10-car convoy. I checked all the vehicles and Saddam stepped out of one car and asked why I inspected them all and not just his. I told him I was not sure in which car he was travelling and that it was in his honour that I checked all the cars. He replied, 'from now on you will be at my side all the time'. He also doubled my salary". Joining the "Inner Circle", Mahmoud found himself in a world far removed from the life of the starving population of Iraq. He received the finest food and had the best weapons. He had access to top level intelligence - so that he could help to plan Saddam's protection. In another excerpt from his debriefing, Mahmoud boasts: "I was inside the innermost circle where Saddam eats and sleeps. I was among the handful of bodyguards closest to him". The bodyguard has given a rare glimpse of what life is like with Saddam. "Very few people are allowed close to Saddam. Many of the TV images you see of him were taken years ago. Most people now only speak to him over the phone. He usually calls them. If they have to call him back with information he wants, it is passed through his sons, Quasy or Tariq Aziz. "All those close to him have codes, which they use to access the outer circle. But even they can only come so close to Saddam before there is a cut-off point - the Inner Circle. Even Tariq Aziz is checked to see if he is carrying weapons. Saddam knows fortunes are being offered to have him assassinated", Mahmoud has revealed. The most protected of all Saddam's palaces is the Qesser al-Quwwa Sitta'shar in Tikrit - close to his birthplace. Mahmoud has described how the palace has four main entrances - and has the latest Chinese-manufactured surveillance equipment. "There are sensors and matchbox sized cameras everywhere. There are doors which can only be opened by placing your face on a key pad. "The palace has a number of escape routes that are outside the palace walls. At each escape point there are cars. A car is always parked at each exit. No one knows what exit Saddam will use. On the way to one he can change his mind and go to another. I have know him change his mind several times over thirty feet. "Saddam's own living quarters in the palace are a labyrinth of doors. To even enter the private sanctum requires having the separate codes to open four doors. On the reverse side of each door is a monitor which shows the Special Guards on duty who is entering". Saddam's paranoia has increased after his son, Uday, narrowly escaped assassination. He is now wheelchair bound. To avoid even his own bodyguards being tempted to kill him, Saddam himself is, according to Mahmoud, a walking arsenal. "He has concealed guns all over his body. He also has panic buttons to press if he even suspects somebody is about to attack him", the former bodyguard has said. Israeli intelligence sources have hinted that part of the deal with Mahmoud was to smuggle out his family from Iraq. Mossad have done this before. At the start of Saddam's reign of terror they persuaded an Iraqi pilot to fly his Russian Mirage to Israel - after Mossad had spirited his wife and children there.
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