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Post by Wycco on Feb 18, 2003 10:22:14 GMT -5
No one can possibly know the answer to this. Personally I think the answer is: No. But I cannot be sure. In terms of Christianity, where they believe if you don't accept Jesus as the saviour you go to hell. I certainly hope this is not the case. If God creates all living creatures- and is totally all-knowing... surely he would know upon creating a person, if that person was going to believe in Jesus or not. Why create someone knowing they would spend eterninty in hell? LOL- if Jesus exists- I better pack the sunscreen ! I could pretend to believe in him (JIC), but what would be the point- I would be lying to myself- and IF God were omnicient he would know the truth anyway! Anyhow- with that said- I do think religion, whereas it can spawn evil, is usually a good thing. It helps keeps tabs on people- and has released people like Mother Teresa to help the less fortunate. Statistically- we're most likely all a computer simulation anyway... but I'll explain when I have more time...
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Post by daSilva on Feb 18, 2003 11:26:50 GMT -5
Well I don't like to talk about this but here goes. Some may find this interesting and some may dismiss it but here is my story.
When I was 19 I was involved in a very bad accident, no fault of my own. To keep it short lets just say I was hit head on, upon impact I blacked out, I was wearing a seatbelt. In an instant I saw all of my loved ones dead and alive, and then I was travelling down a spiral tunnel towards a light. I never got close to the light for I heard a voice that said not yet.
I awoke about 20 feet from the vehicle in a pool of blood curled up in a fetal position, strangely there was no blood in the vehicle or between myself and the vehicle. I stood up feeling a little woozy, fortunately there was a hospital less than a block away, somebody asked me if I was OK, I replied yes not knowing the extent of my own injuries, oddly after a short time I walked to the hospital as an ambulance was not forthcoming, some guy accompanied me, I never knew who he was but he kept telling me that the side of my head was bleeding profusely.
Upon walking into emergency I went to check-in, fill in forms and stuff, the nurse took me right through. Within the hour I'd had a CAT scan and every bone in my body X-rayed. The nurses and the Doctor were tying me down to a gurney, I kept asking what was going on, the doctor then explained to me that I had to travel one hour to get to a better hospital so that I could have neuro surgery to pull out hundreds of skull fragments.
My skull had been smashed about 3cm from my left temple, the back of my skull was also cracked, furthermore my neck was broken at C2, usually if you break any of C1-3 you're in a wheel chair for the rest of your life.
My recovery was a miracle, I was in hospital for 5 days, I wore a halo for less than four weeks, of course I looked terrible, my head was shaved and I had 50 stitches in my head along with the halo and I had lost about 20lbs in what had seemed overnight. Six weeks later though I attended the wedding of my sister and was well on my way to full recovery. I still get a few headaches as my skull now likes to act as a barometer and I can't wear my hair too short because of the scars, but who doesn't get the occasional headache and I'm lucky enough to still have a full head of hair.
I remember my first walk outside after my ordeal, and it was as if I had been reborn, the smells and sights were incredible, I can't even describe it, and I was only walking down a surburban street. Although my own concept of frailty had obviously changed there was more to it than that, I felt a deeper sense of spirituality in me that was more than just a realisation that life is short. I find it very important even today to express the little things to people, give a them a hug tell them you love them.
Some may dismiss what I experienced travelling down that tunnel, as we have all heard that story too many times, but I still hear that voice in my head, and I really believe somebody or something cared for me and watched over me that day.
One more strange occurance was that I was wearing a cross around my neck and a hoop earing that day, both were gone and never found.
Yes I believe in God and the afterlife, and I'm not afraid to die, for death is just another step in our development.
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Post by BrainFade on Feb 18, 2003 11:49:12 GMT -5
Wow, daSilva - glad to hear you made it out ok. Clearly God built you good 'n' strong. I've broken my head too, but that's another story.
I voted "maybe" because even though I dpn't believe in God, I can't disprove his existence either. I hear stories like yours, where people have had a personal experience with God/ the afterlife and I can't argue with their own experiences.
Speaking for myself, I am something of an empiricist, but also a relativist/social constuctionist. I tend to base my beliefs on what can be measured and objectively evaluated (what is objectivity though - issue for another thread maybe?). Thus far there has been no objective, empirical evidence that I'm aware of to validate claims of God's existence.
However, the social constructionist/relativist in me strongly believes that there are no absolute truths (or at least we as humans, being imperfect creatures, are unable to know them) and as such I cannot say for certain that my non-belief in God is any more valid than your belief in God. That's where faith comes in I guess.
So the "maybe" vote was inevitable for me...
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Post by thajavaman on Feb 18, 2003 18:47:43 GMT -5
God is extremely mean... (or it can be said that I'm just stupid) ... When I got back home last night, at 11pm, I chose not to do a stupid homework, and instead make a post in this threat which is of my interest. So there I go, I had supper, checked my e-mail and went on to try to make a smart post (and everyone here must know how hard that is in my case [IQ of - 150]). A very sumptuous entry it was, having spent more than an hour at it, the clock was laughing at me, and its hands were giving me the finger at exactly 2:14am CST*. I said to myself, I'll better save this or post it as it is and continue editing, heard a noice out near my car, went and took a look. Must have been the wind, I told myself, but when I came back down, it all cleared out to me, it was Him/Her, who had noticed what I was writting, and made me leave the computer, so that when I came back down, the mp3 was stuck at the same 4 beats. At the sound of such horrific -yet recognizable- noise, I rushed down the stairs to find my computer wrecked. Not that it had fallen off the desk, but more like it crashed, and well, consequence of that, I made an self-boycot on the Subject of God for a while (or at least till I have time to spare) be carefull with him/her... she moves in mysterious ways... *Actually, I have no idea whether we're ar Standard or Daily Savings time ;D
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Post by greg99 on Feb 19, 2003 5:51:24 GMT -5
If there is, he/she is a sadistic bastard. Danny Boy - a HUGE thank you. Those are my EXACT words. I have been saying this for years and always got the evil eye.
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Post by greg99 on Feb 19, 2003 6:29:48 GMT -5
Yes there is a God. as human beings it is not possible to comprehand God in his entirty. but the world as we know it cannot simply exist by coincidence. It is us people who have screwed things up. but don't blame all the shit that happens in the world on God. I have to step in here. If we cannot blame god for the crap in the world then, based on this argument, we cannot thank it either for the good. Therefore, what do we need it for?? That's this lack of consistency that I cannot take anymore: when it's bad, it's not god, it's us stupid and ungrateful humans. When it's good, praise the lord. Allow me to be extremely rude for once but fuck this shit! Now, I don't think any less of anyone for what they believe in (or not). As long as they are happy and feel good about themselves, that's all that matters to me. Proof is I love RacerX and he is a believer ;D Also, I believe in scientific explanations for this world existing and us being here - evolution not creation. Smokingun: I do respect you and your beliefs but when you say that your "religion" (don't mind the word, it's a generic I'm using) teaches you how to love other people, I have to admit to being puzzled. Shouldn't loving and respecting others be a natural process? Do you really need someone to tell you to love or not to love? I'm sorry, but I don't understand this. (Having said that, I would love sitting down with you and sharing my views and try to understand yours - should we meet somewhere half way? Say at Danny Boy's place? ) I believe in myself and what I can do. I blame myself for my failures and I find pride in my successes. I believe in doing to others what you would want others to do to you and vice versa, I believe what goes around comes around. I believe there is good in each and everyone and that loving, respecting, sharing and communicating with others will help them find this good and express it, as well as passing it forward. I believe Chris Pook will save Champ Cars, I believe Sean Connery is the sexiest man alive and I believe Wycco is an amazing guy for creating this place. I believe in you people.
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Post by Henrik on Feb 19, 2003 7:16:39 GMT -5
Greg99 wrote: But but but....
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Post by smokingun on Feb 19, 2003 10:10:15 GMT -5
I have to step in here. If we cannot blame god for the crap in the world then, based on this argument, we cannot thank it either for the good. Therefore, what do we need it for?? every thing that god creates or does he does for a reason and is good. but he has given us the ability to choose. God gave us life and intelligence and so we thenk him/her/it for these gifts. but it is we who choose to abuse these gifts. i think we need to better understand what is bad and what is good. if i fail at a task is it really bad? how bad is it? if i succeed, then i thank God for gifting me the ability to succeed, but even with that ability the credit goes to the person for using the ability. perhaps the term "Praise the Lord" has been abused by i) either using it out of context ii) failure to use it when it should be used i'm sure most of us feel this way. that is why i said that religion is deeply personal. it does not matter if you beleive or you don't. hell i never used to go to church before for a long long time. but i never ever doubted my religious beleifs. did i just say hell?? there was this movie called "inherit the wind" at least that is what i think the name was. it was a great movie based on a true story. and while it goes along with what you say above, i would say from watching the movie at least what i remember of it was that evolution *and* creation. how can you measure a day before the sun was created?? you are right. these should be natural. and if you beleive in God then you will see that these are the things that God has given us, but it is us who choose to hate. this discussion that you would love to have, it would remain civil right?? and i rather than troubling poor Danny Boy, why not sit down at my parish church? i am sure my parish priest would just love to join us you know, a couple of posts back we discussed the term "Karma". in a discussion with a man in search of this "truth", he told me that God resides in each one of us. it is upto us to discover him. perhaps he is right. to find God maybe we do need to look inwards rather than outwards. i have no doubt that you are a good human being and you don't need to quote the bible or the quran or the gita to be a good human being. all of what you said above are what i agree with and i believe in as well. i don't know Chris Pook, i concurr about Wycco. Sean Connery sexiest ?? ...................... alive?? well they are *your* beleifs, far be it for me to deny you what i beleive every human a fundamental right to. ditto
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Post by greg99 on Feb 19, 2003 10:29:35 GMT -5
Thank you smokingun - I don't have to agree with everything you say but I'm real happy you took the time to respond. And I like the tone you use. this discussion that you would love to have, it would remain civil right?? and i rather than troubling poor Danny Boy, why not sit down at my parish church? i am sure my parish priest would just love to join us I'll be civil if you will As to sitting down at your church, no thanks, I don't go to churches. I think these conversations can take place anywhere, no? I've never been to India so I'm checking flight fares, and if your god really wants me to meet you, I'll land the money one way or another.......just kidding and pulling your leg. But joking aside, it would be swell to chat, I have a good feeling about you
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Post by Cine_Man on Feb 19, 2003 11:24:45 GMT -5
How many angels was it decided could dance on the head of a pin?
But that was a church thing.
What remains is something that greg and smokingun are starting to orbit, and that is the issue of personal responsibility.
When you surrender your own judgement to a "moral" authority... what is that? Faith, or abrogation?
Thats when you can commit any crime in defense of your "belief"... and dehumanizes those not of your cloth.
Tell me if adherence to "faith" presupposes individual moral choice. I'd have to wonder about someone who is totally submitted to God, unless it was inconvenient, or on the other hand, easy to off-load the consequences of acts that they have undertaken.
Cine_...
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Post by Srrh on Feb 19, 2003 14:18:18 GMT -5
Thankfully god is dead. Or she would have been really pissed off. If God were alive and we were really created in her own image, she'd comit suicide in desperation.
Meanwhile, enjoy this little text by Singer published in the new-yorker:
"Hey all you Christians,
If Jesus were alive today he wouldn't drive an SUV, or spray chemicals on his lawn or advocate spending half your hard earned tax dollar on the military. Jesus wouldn't be waving flags of ANY nation. He wouldn't support a US invasion of Iraq or continued bombing of Afghan civilians...and he certainly wouldn't advocate the death penalty!! If Jesus were alive today, he'd ride a bicycle (or walk) and he'd advocate PEACE."
Singer's argument made me think...if Jesus were alive today, he'd probably be an agnostic as he sure thinks like them.
Those of us who doubt and question things around us will allways be terminally screwed by those who "have all the answers".
Reminds me of St Augustin, who was walking down the beach, and saw a young boy digging a hole. St Augustin asked him "What are you doing with that hole? " And the kid answered, "I am going to put the entire ocean in it" St Augustin looked at him and replied "You're silly boy, if you think something as large as the ocean will fit in your tiny hole.." "Not as silly as you" answered the boy "You think something as awsome as God could fit in your tiny head."
As Wyc. I believe NO ONE could possibly know the answer to this. I also believe the answer is no. And to paraphrase DB, I'd rather not, because if there is a God, he's all BUT benevolent. So dunno, but guess not.
So write me down for dunno.
S...
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Post by daSilva on Feb 19, 2003 14:59:59 GMT -5
I love it when people try to blame God for everything. It is so typical of people not taking responsibility. Besides if you're going to blame someone for the bad stuff shouldn't you blame Satan. LOL.
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Post by Henrik on Feb 19, 2003 15:18:33 GMT -5
If Jesus was around today he would probably be in a mental hospital. Nobody would take him seriously, and he would be declared mentally insane.
Who knows, maybe he is around....
I personally don't believe there is a god, but I don't have a problem at all with people who do. Each and everyone is entitled to his belief. One thing I am sure of though, is that I have no intention of not living it up in this life just in case there is something else afterwards. Live for the moment, and make the best of it each day.
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Post by Srrh on Feb 19, 2003 15:50:16 GMT -5
I love it when people try to blame God for everything. Hehehe, me too. But that's what almighty means. If she's not almighty, she's not God. And if she is, she is to be praised (and blamed) for everything. But hey, believing is believing...there is an element of faith. Believing should apply to tinkerbell, or santa or ghosts... That's why Muslims don't say "I believe in God" but say "God is", once you believe, you open the door to arguments. If you say "is" there is no argument. Hence Allah Akbar: God IS great. I believe M$ is a great champion: can be argued. Ferrari's color IS red. Definitive. Hence the inceredible development of the Muslim faith over the last 50 years while Christianity is falling back. S... PS I use to date this chick in college and she was excommunicated by the vatican. Cost her under 20$ Canadian. 20 bucks in the trashn if you ask me...
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Post by Wycco on Feb 19, 2003 16:04:47 GMT -5
Srrh... I believe in is. (depending on what your definition of is is)
And- I don't think God is a woman- otherwise it would be us men having periods!
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