America's Cup

[Henrik]

Yeah, I read that about the race having to take place on sea water

Still, I'm hoping Alinghi wins it, and they then change the rules so that I can watch them race here in Lac Léman! I want to see that!!!!

[Wycco]

... So if you take a cup of Water from the Mediterranean and dump it in Lac Léman... does that count as racing on sea water.... since technically there would then be SOME sea water in Lac Léman?

Clinton would get away with it!!!!

[Henrik]

Brilliant Wycco!!

I better write to Bertarelli right away.

Wow, you have found the solution.

P.S. You say Clinton would get away with it, but so would Ferrari, no?

[raptor22]

Oh boy,is this turning into a Ferrari bashing thread?

PS: Wycco,

I challenge you to find your cup of sea water after you've dropped it in.

But this is irrelevant, Team New Zealand will retain the cup. I hear they have some radical boat which Alinghi and Oracle are trying to elulate by making major changes to their boats.
Only problem is that the boats they race in the LV finals are the boats they must use in the America's cup final.
Remember the challenge is issued by deed of gift by a racing syndicate on behalf of the challenging boat.

Would be great to seee Ainghi make a race of it though and not a 5love thrashing like last time.

[raptor22]

Team Zealand do the Hula:
No Protests On Cup Yachts
09/01/2003 03:43 PM -

By the deadline of 3.00pm on Wednesday, no protests had been received by the jury in regard to the legality of either of the Louis Vuitton Cup finalists or the Team New Zealand yachts NZL81 and NZL82.

The America's Cup jury has now answered five questions asked by Swiss challenge Alinghi querying what evidence would be required if a protest was laid against the hula during next month's match. The jury said it would need "clear and convincing evidence" that the appendage had touched the hull during racing.

In the event of any protest during the America's Cup Match over the legality of Team New Zealand's innovative hula appendage, the onus of proof will be on the challenger.

The hula - a hull appendage which gives a boat more length at the waterline - has already been certified by the measurement committee.

In the event of a protest, the jury said it could call on a member of the measurement committee as an expert witness on technical aspects of the hula.

But the jury will not determine whether the rule (Racing Rule 78.1) has been broken. It will present the facts found to the measurement committee, which will then advise the jury whether there has been a breach in the rule.

In making the decision the jury is bound by the reply of the measurement committee.
pictures @ www.cupviews.com
or
www.teamnewzealand.com

[Henrik]

The America's Cup jury has now answered five questions asked by Swiss challenge Alinghi querying what evidence would be required if a protest was laid against the hula during next month's match. The jury said it would need "clear and convincing evidence" that the appendage had touched the hull during racing.

Now I think all the legal issues around the racing is a bit sad, each of them trying to obtain an advantage out of the water simply wrong. That said, how on earth is somebody to obtain "clear and convincing evidence" that the hula touched the hull during racing? The damn thing is just millimeters under the hull, and below the water surface.

5mm barge boards ring a bell?

[raptor22]

Once again a competitor has come up with a way around the rules even not in the spirit of it. This is called progress. If no innovation is allowed then you may as well race in any class of sloop used in international regatta's.

Also if the Hula appendage touches for a instant and then breaks away from the surface again it will adversely affect the performance of the boat. TNZ will either want that appendage to stay clear to provide constant flow through the gap or permanenlty close the gap during racing. Oscillation will not be a good thing.

PS: If Ferrari managed to wrangle themselves out of a tight spot then good on them. It is up to the FIA and the other teams to provide a convincing arguement as too the illegality of the opposition. That Ferrari has managed to provide convincing arguement as too th illegality of it's opposition is down to the well thought our arguement they present to the FIA Technical Commitee. MacLaren should hire better Lawyers.
But it should be about politics should it. Just pure racing is what we want. Lets hope we get it sometime in the near future.

anyway, 5mm tolerance on a barge has little effect on overall performance. That rule introduced by the FIA is just plain stupid. The important thing is the shape of the barge board and it's distance from the side pods and undertray Splitter.

[Henrik]

I'm all for progress, and I believe it can be achieved by staying within the spirit of the rules. This applies really to any sport as far as I am concerned.

What really bothers me is the way there are always protests being made, thus creating legal and political arguments. When it comes to any sport, it is the sport that interests me. If Ferrari won because they had the best set of lawyers, then what does that say about racing? And just in case you are wondering, I certainly don't feel that Ferrari have a monopoly with these sort of cases, all involved with modern F1 are guilty.

When it comes to boats, I enjoy watching a 12 race simply because of its majestic beauty on water. Probably the boat races that I enjoy the most to watch are those with old wooden boats, as they are so stunningly beautiful, and races are simply decided by the best skipper/team. If the boats can complete the course in 10 second or 10 minutes or whatever faster than before is irrelevant to a spectator. All the single class races are great to watch, and some of them are racing with boats that have not really evolved for 30 years. Hell, the Finn class dates back to 1949!!

In motorsport I have mentioned on several occasions that I get much more pleasure from watching "lesser" series, as it is there that the racing is what determines who wins. Again, if a car can complete a lap in 1min30 seconds or 1min10 seconds, I really don't care.

[raptor22]

well i think thats pretty much what any spectator wants. The enjoyment of relating to the battle. Some people only relate what is seen , other s at a deeper level because they are more interested in the intricasy of mechanism of how a victory was achieved. For this you need a technical and politial understanding of the equipment and the people involved.

i too love watching yacht races. There nothingmore majestic except perhaps watching a hangglider riding the thermals anddisappearing from view in complete silence.

As for F1, it does make me very sad to see that teams have to resort to arbitration panels and lawyers to be confirmed. That incident of the barge boards was technically so trivial that it did'nt influence the outcome of the race. yet itwas still a political issue because Ron Dennis wanted to get at Ferrari for asking for clarification on the brake steer mechanism Mac had the year before. It just reeduces the whole spectacle to a childish banter.

I was lying awake last thinking about what actually ha changed the face of F1 over the last 20 yrs. Andthe answer i came up with was very simple.
INFORMATION!!

More specifically data logging.

I ws thinking that cars were designed differently in the 70's and 80's compared to today. The designer used his experience and oftern made educated or imply intuitive guesses as to how a component should look. Cars performances varied not because the design did not suit a certain track, but because the engineers did not fully understand why a certain ar was not behaving how it should have.
With the advent of datalogging,this uncertainty and guesswork has been removed. The teams now deal mainly with absolutes andtheir guesses are driven by statistics.
Everytime a cr turns a wheel it is set up to within 5% of it's maximum capability. There is very little left for the driver to solve in the cockpit.

The really sad thing is that, simpler cars will not change the scenario. It willmake the sport cheaper, but while the teams are designing their cars on CAD/CAM machinery and using tols like FEA and CFD ther is very littlehope that the spectator will get the uncertainty we crave for.

The world has changed around us. This change has reached even the very basic sports. Almost al athletes now use Heart rate monitors to guage their performance. So the gap between competitors has closed in thse sports.

In sports where another machine is used to propel human, ie, sailing or F1, It is the machines that win the day. it is the designers spark of creativity that get s the proces started but it is the machines that remove the uncertainty.
In these sports, as the web of technology slowly strangles every possible avenue of creativity ,the designer wil continue to skirt the boundries of the rules that govern them. It's a natural process. Unfortunately Politics controls how far they are allowed to go.

If it were so smple to only abide by the spirit of the rules we would'nt need them.

Rules are there to control people who are not designed to be controlled...
Their creativity and intellect will always be looking for the edge, and that is found in interpretation of those very rules designed to constrain.

This is life.........you can't touch my bum ;D

(Sorry could'nt resist, thatdamn song is playing on MTV...

[Henrik]

Great post Raptor, and I can only agree with what you are saying.

Now if only this damn winter could go away so I can get back to real racing with my kart!

[raptor22]

yeah can't wait either. decided to do a few rent a kart drives before investing. I know that I have a tendency to get bored with anything so I need to be sure I'm competitive enough for the thrill of competition to motivate me to spend £3000 on a Biland powered Kart.
A Rotax is a lot less. around £2000!

[CFF]

Hey guys .... Anyone have a photo / link of this 'HULA' appendage (device) ?? I'd be interested in seeing what all the fuss is about (or .... is it completely covered when the boat enters harbour / docking facility)?

CFF

[raptor22]

CFF,

Theres a picture of it on
www.teamnewzealand.com

[CFF]

Thanks Raptor ...

Difficult to see the HULA. Did some more searching ..... and there really isn't a 'great' picture of the HULl Appendage (thanks to the paint scheme / colour of the hull).

CFF

[raptor22]

yes i know, it is such a subtle design. I ad to look really hard at first to see what the fuss was about an then it hit me.
It's attached down the centre with a 10cm wide spine which runs the length of the appendage.

what I find interesting is that they must have somehow managed to create a scenario where the flow through the gap becomes stagnant flow relative to the rest of the flow around the hull. That is the only way that thing will help the boat be faster. The hohah about extra drag is something I don't buy, because why thenhave they builtboth boats with similar appenadages. Theres a lot more to that device than meets the eye. I doubt either Oracle or alinghi willbe able to study it completely and build and fit and evaluate before the unveiling for the cup.
I think SUI-78 is a faster boat than SUI-64 so we'll have to wait and see whathappens.#It'sgoing to be a nail biting final.