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Post by Wycco on Jul 31, 2003 16:21:46 GMT -5
Curious about your opinions on property taxes:
Personally- I think the idea of property tax is "one of" the worst tax ideas there is.
Essentially, what it boils down to is this- the government is charging you rent for something you already own. Really, what it means is- you never own anything- everything you own is really the governments- and they charge you to use what you pay for.
What about an old person- with no fixed income- buys a property, only to be forced to sell it as time goes by because of property taxes. Happens all the time.
Property taxes are also expensive to collect. It costs the government more to collect money from property taxes than other taxes due to labour for reassessments- etc-etc.
I'm a big believer in taxes should be based on what you consume... the more you consume- the more you should pay- to me its the "fairest" method of collecting taxes. He who useth- payeth.
Basically, this means- a sales-tax system. What I would like to see is a two-tier sales tax to replace income taxes and property taxes.
A lower tax rate for essentials. A higher tax rate for luxury items.
/paid property taxes today
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Post by DeadCat on Jul 31, 2003 16:36:23 GMT -5
Well, (kind of embarrassed), we have a rain tax here…..
(DeadCat)
No shit either, we are actually taxed because of rain.... (I believe it's due to the extensive drainage system)
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Post by Wycco on Jul 31, 2003 16:43:25 GMT -5
Well, (kind of embarrassed), we have a rain tax here….. Do you pay it with a rain-cheque? ("rain-Check" for the yanks)
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Post by Topcontender on Jul 31, 2003 16:44:25 GMT -5
Wycco, it sounds like you raised the taxes on your home? I just had mine doubled, and it sucks. They cliam it is to toward education. In reality my gov my Frank O'bannon bankrupt the state by funding his useless prgrams by using the tobacco money settlement. His money dried up, and now we get stuck paying for his mistakes. now our senior citizens are forced to sell thier homes, and do it in poor economy where they will get less for thier homes.
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Post by Srrh on Aug 1, 2003 7:25:43 GMT -5
Yea, Yea... Too much taxes, not enough cops, eroding moral values, homeland security...blablabla...we know the tune... S. Since the "Blood for oil" operation your adoptive country undertook in Iraqi costs 4 BILLION a month...I hope y'all get 10 more taxes hike this year... I to the fact that hopefully, soon, the country will be so broke, the only thing its population will invade is one of its numerous trailor park.
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Post by Wycco on Aug 1, 2003 7:35:01 GMT -5
Srrh,
It's not really the quantity of taxes I'm complaining about- but the quality.
I understand governments need to raise money- but property taxes seem to me, to be rather unfair- and uncalled for. It is penalizing people for investing rather than just renting. It encourages people not to be "owners".
Rent causes polarization between the haves and the have-nots: I thought you would be opposed to that Srrh!
But the main thing I fundamentally oppose about property tax- is that it essentially states that we own nothing- the government owns everything. The government owning everything is one hell of a scary thought!
Sales tax, by contrast, encourages people to invest and grow the economy. Since under a pure sales tax system, you wouldn't be taxed until you consumed- middle class would be more encouraged to invest their money- helping the economy and themselves all at the same time.
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Post by Srrh on Aug 1, 2003 8:43:57 GMT -5
But the main thing I fundamentally oppose about property tax- is that it essentially states that we own nothing- the government owns everything. The government owning everything is one hell of a scary thought! But they always did... How many stories have we heard of Familly living in a place for generations and then getting expropriated ? It is the same thing. Property is, by definition, limited in scope and, more importantly, in time. Hell, if you comit a crime, the Gov. might even KILL you...which means that they do in fact own everything: including your life !! S.
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Post by Srrh on Aug 1, 2003 8:49:21 GMT -5
Sales tax, by contrast, encourages people to invest and grow the economy. Since under a pure sales tax system, you wouldn't be taxed until you consumed- middle class would be more encouraged to invest their money- helping the economy and themselves all at the same time. You could make the exact opposite argument: Sales taxes decrease consumption and thus deprive many blue colar americans of a job... Of course, if fortune 500 CEOs paid their fucking taxes just ONCE, you wouldn't have that problem... Tar and feathers have been greatly misused in recent US history...If it went to (on?) the right people, they wouldn't be a road or a pillow left in North America (and that includes Canada) S.
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Post by Topcontender on Aug 1, 2003 9:45:20 GMT -5
Srrh- ah but the property tax's are not federally regulated. The state charges you the tax. The US just spends too much money on bullshit. Look at california, this state is over 44 billion in debt this year already, and the new budget just passed had a slew of sneaked in things that were added with out the politicians approval. One of them is the new $500,000 statue of an aztec god for people with HIV/ AIDS. This statue was axed from the budget, but in a supplement was sneaked in with anyone knowing. Now many of the politicians are pissed.
Or Srrh- your fav the 70+ billion dollar war budget supplement. Only like 15 billion is going toward the real war effort. The rest is pisseed away refunding Israel for lost tourism business, and to pay for Dams in like wyoming. All this Pork spending is a joke. Why should i pay for some silly dam's repairs, when it is a state's job to do it.
Ahh these fools in DC are a joke. LET me in there and the budget will be balanced in 3 years. You won't see any pork spending and the money will come pouring in.
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Post by Wycco on Aug 1, 2003 10:52:00 GMT -5
Srrh,
If people were capable of getting ahead by investing money to stimulate the economy- whomever the investment was made toward- that business would then have the extra money to:
a) Buy equipment that company needs(giving money to vendors and indirectly blue/white collar workers)
and
b) Hire more blue (and white) collar workers.
Everyone benefits.
Re: Government owning us. Thats where we fundamentally disagree- we own the government not the other way around. That is why we choose who runs it- and why government run things are called "PUBLIC".
Incareration's are carried out to PROTECT people who have been victimized by the criminals who righty get punnished.
Once you change the focus from the the people owning the government to the government owning people- you run into a dangerous situation where people have no civil liberties and no protection against a building totalitarian or communist state.
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Post by Srrh on Aug 1, 2003 12:35:04 GMT -5
1) If people were capable of getting ahead by investing money to stimulate the economy- whomever the investment was made toward- that business would then have the extra money to: a) Buy equipment that company needs(giving money to vendors and indirectly blue/white collar workers) and b) Hire more blue (and white) collar workers. Everyone benefits. 2)Government owning us. Thats where we fundamentally disagree- we own the government not the other way around. 3)That is why we choose who runs it 4)Incareration's are carried out to PROTECT people who have been victimized by the criminals who righty get punnished. 5)Once you change the focus from the the people owning the government to the government owning people- you run into a dangerous situation where people have no civil liberties and no protection against a building totalitarian or communist state. Wyc, 1) We'll agree to disagree on that. You beleive the market is fundamentaly "good" while I beleive that it's a f**ing jungle, with badly needed policing. I see you even leaning toward a flat tax rate...which again basically benefits the richs. I do not beleive in your (a) hypothesis for a second...nor in the (b) part of it, come to think of it... I'll adopt your line of thought when I'm a millionaire, with loads of revenue to protect. 2) Again...your fundamental optimism is playing tricks on you. 3)That's just plain ROFL...I am sure even you don't beleive that. And if you do, just ask around this forum who esle beleives that and you'll find yourself alone with that Redneck from Idianna. ;D 4)Hahahahaha...gee, you're on a row....very funny today...love the sarcasm...BUT, just in case you're serious www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/burden/view/5)WTF does communism have to do with it? Man, you need to go back to your Marx, Lenin and Hemingway....you've lived in McCarthy's place for too long. Its propaganda is rubbing of you. Srrh
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Post by Wycco on Aug 1, 2003 13:15:58 GMT -5
1) You beleive the market is fundamentaly "good" while I beleive that it's a f**ing jungle, with badly needed policing. I see you even leaning toward a flat tax rate...which again basically benefits the richs. I do not beleive in your (a) (b) 2) Again...your fundamental optimism is playing tricks on you. 3)That's just plain ROFL...I am sure even you don't beleive that. 4)http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/burden/view/ 5)WTF does communism have to do with it? 1) Hey an 11% return average per year rise throughout the ENTIRE HISTORY seems to be a good thing to me- don't want to mess with that record do you? a+b - You really don't think companies having more money will cause the company to have more money to procure goods and hire employees? Interesting... I suppose companies don't try growing- they just dump excess cash into Boston harbour! Re:Flat tax rate- not at all. In my first post I suggested a two tier rate. Essentials- such as food would have a lower tax rate than luxury goods. For example- Houses over 2000 sq ft. - Cars with more than 4 cylinders of more than 3 litres of engine capacity. Products containing more than 10% precious metals or jemstones... all would constitute as a luxury good and be subject to a higher tax rate. Obviously the system between what constitutes luxury or not would need to be worked on- and the goal would be to keep the code simple. A sales tax is perhaps the fairest tax there is- those that consume more pay more. Those that consume less- pay less. The rich pay a fair proportion more. The more you consume...etc...etc Those that invest (helping the economy and the unemployment rate) are rewarded by not paying (immediate) tax for the amount the investing in the economy. - of course once they withdraw their investment and spend- they do pay tax. 2) If you live in a "housing development" that has certain laws- the "housing development" doesn't own you- you just mutually abide by those laws. The struggle of power between man and government has been going on throughout human history. Democracy- by essence- is the handing of power to the people. It ain't perfect- but the government knows- abuse power and you're out at the next election. 3) Bush, regretably, was elected fairly by the current electoral system in place- I think the electoral system needs updating- but thats an entirely different topic not relevant to this discussion. 4) Not visited link although I note it is PBS- not entirely a neutral or reliable source of unbiased-information. I'll check it out later. By the way- I think we already visited this topic- and the research from interpol showed countries with higher incarceration rates had lower crime rates. - but once again- this isn't really applicable to this discussion. 5) This is tied to #2- you're belief that the government should own the people rather than the other way around: Communism and Totalitarianism has the government having ownership of everything. You'll find the more power people have the more they abuse it. If you don't believe me- travel to China or Cuba and yell "THE GOVERNMENT STINKS" (in the vernacular of course) at the top of your lungs outside a police station... Oh but add me to your will before you do it! ;D Giving government too much power is not a good thing- trust me! Name one communist or totalitarian state that had a good civil rights record.
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Post by daSilva on Aug 1, 2003 13:24:26 GMT -5
Thx for the link S. that is why I don't believe in capital punishment, because the system is not perfect.
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Post by Srrh on Aug 1, 2003 13:42:22 GMT -5
1) Hey an 11% return average per year rise throughout the ENTIRE HISTORY seems to be a good thing to me- don't want to mess with that record do you? 2)Name one communist or totalitarian state that had a good civil rights record. 1) That is money of speculation, not production. It doesn't mean at all that 11% more goods were created, or even that the global market 's real value increased by 11%...it just means the rates for borowing (interest rates, in other words) are so insanely low that everyone is trying the market...instead of playing roulette !!! 2)Name an imperialist one that does ? In our society, the human totalitarian aspect has been replaced by economic totalitarianism...China, Cuba and the rest are still in the 20th century...they'll soon realize (as our great leaders have) that you can force people to do what you want them to, in two ways. The first one (old) is to force them. The second one (new) is to make them beleive that it is what they really want!!! PS; You make other wise some very valid points. Which are duely noted. S.
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Post by Srrh on Aug 1, 2003 13:55:47 GMT -5
Not visited link although I note it is PBS- not entirely a neutral or reliable source of unbiased-information. C'mon...it's HOSTED by PBS, but it is actually a link to Frontline (which an intl. production: BBC, CBC etc...). And i dunno who said it, but Frontline is one of the best reason for owning a TV set those days... If you think they're bias, check one of their programms on China, or Korea....They're very critical of everyone ...but IT IS first rate journalism...very well researched... I'd dig your criticism if I had given a link to PBS's POV, but Frontline? You know, PBS is a melting pot of everything...it has programms like Money (which would make Greenspan blush, they actually tell you how to screw the IRS) and have permanent guests such as Pat Buchannan and such...Hell, Wolfowitz is on the Newshour every week, spewing his propaganda... S.
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