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Post by Wycco on Feb 18, 2003 13:22:07 GMT -5
Pabs,
I think the idea is to legalise it so that the terrorists DON'T get the money.
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Post by pabs on Feb 18, 2003 13:29:34 GMT -5
By legalizing it, you actually make it easier for them to get the money. Maybe not as much but it certainly will be easier. You wouldn't be able to seize their accounts anymore.
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Post by daSilva on Feb 18, 2003 14:10:59 GMT -5
By legitimising the business, the business would be subject to all the taxation laws and public documents just as any other legitimate business. You're never going to stop an individual from giving money where he wants to though. But legalisation would give the government much more control over the distribution of the drugs and the funds or profit created from the sale of said drugs. As I've said before, we need to treat the disease of addiction not treat these people as criminals, addicts turn to crime because of the unavailability and high street cost. Of course legalisation is fraught with pitholes and many aspects of legalisation would have to be studied but I believe it would be better to have it all out in the open than all behind closed doors.
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Post by pabs on Feb 18, 2003 14:37:57 GMT -5
Yeah but the drug traffickers ARE criminals and should be treated as such instead of turning them into prominent businessmen.
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Post by Danny Boy on Feb 18, 2003 21:37:16 GMT -5
Pabs: you are missing the point. When you legalize drugs this allows the Government to buy direct from the farmers. An example; at the moment say a kilo of cocaine is sold by the farmer for $100, by the time it gets to America it will cost $250,000. Once legalized the government could pay farmers (and the other people involved in the process) $1,000 for the same product and bring it to the customers for $10,000. There will be no place for the crime/drug lords as there will be no need for a illegal supply. Profits made by the government on drugs + the enormous savings on police enforcement, could then be used on education and treatment of those affected by drug abuse. However, don't worry, the big business interests in America, who are making billions out of the trade ,will ensure legalization never happens, and sadly, the deaths of people from "Drug Wars" and drug abuse will continue unabated.
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Post by daSilva on Feb 18, 2003 22:04:26 GMT -5
To further DB's point, it will also free up the court systems.
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Post by Danny Boy on Feb 18, 2003 22:12:50 GMT -5
And drastically reduce the prison population.
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Post by smokingun on Feb 19, 2003 2:49:44 GMT -5
These drugs are very addictive. would it matter to an addict that the government is selling these drugs cheaper?? if he/she does not have the money to buy the cheaper legal drugs, it is very likely that he/she will commit a crime to get the money to buy even the cheaper legal drugs. and because of the addictive nature of these drugs and the need to get a high increses as you take drugs, the expenditure even on legal drugs will increase.
like i said, drugs are available very cheap over here. that does not mean that the crime rate commited by addicts drops. infact because of the cheaply available drugs the morons tend to buy more and more. you get college kids using the stuff now because it is so bloody cheap, they bunk classes and from there it is just downhill. due to corruption, one could consider drugs to be legal in places like Goa. trust me, it is not pretty.
da Silva, addiction is a disease, but who is responsible to the people that are mugged, robbed and killed because some junkie needed a fix??
smokingun
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Post by Cine_Man on Feb 19, 2003 17:39:15 GMT -5
This thread has been going for quite awhile! Are you guys "addicted" to it yet?
Back in the bad old days of college, when I did some research on this topic, I came across a quip --"A drug is a substance that when injected into a lab rat, produces a research paper." The other funny one was that "Reality is for people who can't handle drugs!"
Funny thing for me was that with a mild exposure, I made mental connections and realizations more easily -- leaps of logic that would not have occurred to me otherwise. But there was a definite threshold of awareness. I loved the now-continuing (albeit diminished) sci-fi series "Dune" for its psycho-active component.
But the entire issue here is a code of social conduct, cmplicated by issues of vice-control and mercantilism. Over and over I read the litany of things that people do to themselves and each other for every reason under the sun -- since the dawn of time... and it will continue that way. How do you create a criminal? This is one way. How did marijuana come to be controlled? Some say its to control immagration. Some say to destroy hemp in favour of synthetic fibres. (see Monsanto). Some insist its strictly "immoral"... which, is, actually, hypocritical. Ah, these failings.
Cine_...
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Post by pabs on Feb 19, 2003 19:06:36 GMT -5
I understand the economics behind the legalization arguments, but that's not what bothers me. What bothers me is that drug lords have gone to great extents to profit from drug trade. What you guys propose is to make them into businessmen overnight. How can someone that's ordered the deaths of hundreds of judges, policemen, politicians; someone who's ordered bombings and attempted to overthrow the democratic government be turned into a regular citizen overnight?
DB, I see your argument and while it makes sense, I really don't think that the government, especially ours, will ever get into drug trade, if nothing else, for historical reasons.
I really don't think it is fair to forget what drug lords have done just so that some people can get a high. Are we really going to forget those who have died so that we can escape reality for a while? Are we willing for forget those crimes simply just to have fun for a while? In my eyes that cheapens the value of life by putting recreational purposes ahead of the lives of many good, smart people. And let's face it...the bottom line of drug use is either recreational or to support an addiction depending on the drug and the person.
Also, The changes you guys talk about, if they ever happen, will take many generations to take place. At least in my country I don't think we can simply forget the last 20 years of our political history. But, it really is my hope that by then we could educate people NOT to use drugs rather than to promote their use. See, to me it's not the fact that drugs are bad or that they increase crime rate (which I think they do). To me it is simply that I don't think they are good for anything (medicinal purposes excluded). So why do we want to legalize them? Doesn't it make more sense to get rid of them?
You guys have done a wonderful job at defending the idea that drugs aren't bad....let's hear it now for the benefits of drug use.
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Post by Cine_Man on Feb 19, 2003 21:37:21 GMT -5
pabs, could you check this stuff out for me? I have no idea whether I should take it at face value or not. serendipity.magnet.ch/cia/blum1.htmlor do a Google: * CIA Air America drug trade *.... see how many hits you get. Thanks. Cine_...
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Post by daSilva on Feb 19, 2003 23:37:30 GMT -5
Pabs,
Murder is still murder and anyone who comitted murder should still be liabel for their actions. But by legalising the drugs themselves you are stopping the violence immediately, and furthermore there would be no more reason for the producers to order killings. However, anyone who has killed should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law. By legalising the drug you only condone the production of the drug not any of the peripheral violence.
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Post by Danny Boy on Feb 19, 2003 23:51:53 GMT -5
Pabs; I think I speak for most of the others when I say that "we are not condoning drug use," however, we feel that the crime surrounding the drug trade is a far greater problem to society than the drugs themselves. It not an easy project, the amounts of money involved are unbelievable and the people involved will do everything in their power to keep the status quo. What I will state is that “The Drug Lords in your country are a very small part of the problem and are the easiest problem to solve.” The biggest, and probably an insurmountable problem to solve, are the power brokers (including those in the government) in the US and Europe that are making mega bucks from the trade.
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Post by smokingun on Feb 20, 2003 0:09:48 GMT -5
What I will state is that “The Drug Lords in your country are a very small part of the problem and are the easiest problem to solve.” The biggest, and probably an insurmountable problem to solve, are the power brokers (including those in the government) in the US and Europe that are making mega bucks from the trade. another way to look at legalising drugs is to look at the tobacco trade. cigarettes are legal. millions of people are addicted to the stuff. i'd say that more people are addicted to tobacco than drugs. and the result is that we now realize the need to do away with this menace. the current laws that make it harder to smoke in public places, ban on tobacco advertising are just the first steps to ban tobacco altogether IMO. so why make the same mistakes with drugs?? also the tobacco companies are among the richest in the world. legalisng the stuff didn't mean rat poop in terms of vested interests backed by money power from calling the shots.
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Post by daSilva on Feb 20, 2003 0:51:45 GMT -5
SG,
About ten years ago in Ontario the government basically doubled the price of cigarettes by taxation in an attempt to curb smoking. The result was a billion dollar smuggling industry that law enforcement couldn't control, the government was forced to recinde the tax to stop the illegal activity, it worked. My point is that even if they ban smoking people will do it anyway, and here the government makes billions in tax on cigarettes, let alone the jobs that are created by the tobacco industry in Ontario which more than offsets the healthcare costs. But most people don't like to admit that. I think more controls need to be put on the purity of the tobacco and the ingredients that go into cigarettes but banning them is not the answer. But governments will try and it will also be an abysmal failure that will produce more criminal activity.
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