Not One Word

[justan]

Twenty people killed including a two week old child. 0ne hundred and thrity six injured in that bomb blast.

A dead child is a dead child regardless of the parentage. I wholeheartdly agree, but does that make it any easier for you to comprend or push aside the death of those children in that one particular bus. Not for me it doesn't.

The point I was making or trying to make about Iraq is that they are there now. Whether they should have gone in or not is now a moot point.

If you choose to call the last remaining few of the Stalinist regime of Saddam freedom fighters well OK, but whose freedom are they fighting for, the people of Iraq or the remaining few fanatics in the Baath party?

As for the imports tell me you're not trying to compare Bin Laden's group and groups like it to the Brits in France fighting the Nazi in WWII.

Since you seem to be less than specific about what would happen in the event of a US UN pull out, look to Africa for some examples, better yet Afghanistan after the Russians left.

The Yanks and UN really have no choice. They have to stay and see it through. At least I hope they do.

[smokingun]

Justan,
perhaps it never occured to you that some of us may have been just plain busy?? it is almost 1 a.m. over here and this is the only time that i can get to access shamu that too over a pathetically slow dial-up.

DannyBoy,
you seem to think that every thing bad is because of the US/Israel policies. i don't know what real life experience you've had dealing with these fanatical bastards, but i have personally spoken to some islamic extremists and let me assure you that they will not hesitate to cut your balls off simply because you don't face the east and pray. not because of america not because of israel but becaues you are a "kafir". you eat pork?? speak with women alone?? drink?? worship other gods?? damn you deserve to die.

the UN,
a brain dead organization that has little or no relevence today. i hate the senseless loss of life, despair at what we have become as a species. and long for a world where we cherish and respect other people for making us whole, knowing that will never happen.

the babies killed,
i've not heard about that, just read about it on this thread. what can i say?? words have ceased to have any effect. those murdering sons of bitches just don't give a rat's arse. the more anger, shock and grief we express, the more the glee that they feel. these people kill for the joy of it. don't let their sob stories fool you, they are *not* freedom fighters. they are *not* heroes. they have *not* been forced to do what they do. they are cowardly scum bastards that *choose* to do what they do because some friggin mullah promised them 72 virgins in heaven. it all about them being ugly and frusterated muther-fvckers, ready to do anything to satisfy that itch.

srrh,
dumb-ass bombers?? thank you, at times like this, a little humour sure does ease the sick feeling.

[Srrh]

Justan,

Points well taken....except for Afghanistan...which was a shit hole WHILe the russians were there, before that, when the Brits were there, before that...life in Afghanistan seems to have sucked for at least 400 years.

As for the fact that they have no choice now...probably not...


S.

[Justin]

A correction it should have been an 11 month old child, instead of two weeks, not that it really matters now.

OK about the "not one word" bit, perhaps it was a bit too provocative as some seemed to be offended. It's my fault and I apologize for it.


Now can't we all ahd get along

[who won]

a baby killed is obviously just disgusting, but what I always find almost as bad is when newscasters point out to us that the number killed on any particular bus bombing included so many women and children.

Are the men any less victims of a bus bombing or any bombing? Are they any less innocent?
They were blown apart just like the women and children and in most of the cases of these bombings they targetted civilians, just like the women and children.

Nothing represents innocence more than a baby though, however, in reality, what is worse? the killing of a good man? or a baby?

[who won]

Either way both sides kill kids. Israeli kids, palestinian kids...A child ain't worth more to me because he's jewish...a kid's a kid. I'll agree that suicide bombers probably killed more kids the Tashal...but hey, the Israelis have smart bombs...the palestianians have dumb-ass bombers...

I feel obliged to answer that post. I cannot agree at all that the killings are somehope evened out in any way.

In fire fights against militants sometimes Palestinian kids are killed. Now the loss of life is of course no less destructive but the impression that Israeli forces purposefully target innocent civilians could not be further from the truth.


You cannot compare that kind of action with the intent to kill whoever steps on that bus, be it men women or children. - There i distinguished between men and women, I guess it does tend to emphasise the innocence of those lost.
They are civilians.


About the childrens role in the pre Abbas PA?

They USE children for political aims,
We often see the children at the front throwing rocks at the Israeli army, what very often the media usually does not show, are Palestinian gunmen and snipers who are firing from behind and in from within the crowd of the children, using them as cover.
The Arafat Regime was fully aware of the danger it places on its children yet obviously valued the political points scored more than the childs life when the world saw another injured child.

Why are the children there?
The answer is that they are encouraged to go by the PA's role models, their parents, teachers, government officials.
Children are praised if injured and martyrdom awarded if killed.

Palestinian children also watch a Sesame Street-like children’s club where puppets lead them in songs that talk of becoming suicide bombers. Absolutely disgustingly true!

Palestinian textbooks instruct children to sacrifice their lives for the national resistance movement. Palestinian children are sent to summer camps where they are trained for armed conflict.
A while ago, an NBC News show reported, television commercials calling children to drop their toys, and pick up rocks, and battle with Israel.

There is even a commercial played in PA TV of a child suicide bomber, shown in paradise, "urging other children to ‘follow him.’"

Palestinian children are put in the front line purposelly and for some sicko's parents, their childs death in combat makes their parents proud. You see for the believers, Martyrdom extends beyond the individual, the whole family benefits.

As one Israeli put it a while ago, there will probably never be peace until the Palestinians learn to love their children more than they hate us.

Not an exact quote but near enough.

[Henrik]

Having not been to Palestine and seen the sort of children's programs they show, or any of the other propaganda you speak of who won, I think a word of caution may nevertheless be warranted.

I do not question the fact that certain malicious people in Palestine are indeed trying to convince the people and the kids that it is their duty to become a suicide bomber, and that they will be glorified if they die while killing the enemy. However in the way you present it, and the way certain media sometimes presents it, one gets the impression that it is extremely wide-spread and common. This I seriously doubt. I could be wrong, but I still believe that there is a majority of Palestinians who wish for nothing else than peace, and so this majority would not allow for such shows to become mainstream on their media.

I could at this point probably search more on the web to try and discover the sources of your claims, and I am sure I will find something (like that picture of a baby with a bomb belt I am sure we have all seen), but I would think it is extreme an unusual. Obviously certain opposing forces will also jump on such images to use them as propaganda in the other direction.

I think we can all agree that the place is a mess, and it has been for so long. Looking at who started it, or who is at fault is futile at this point, as basically all the "leaders" there on both sides are guilty at present for reducing any chance for peace. People like Arrafat and Sharon are probably the last sort of people the area needs in order to have some hope for the future.

[who won]

Henrik

I agree with you, the majority of people want nothing to do with these malicious murderous individuals and groups and the concept of martyrdom. They do not want their children to die in any battle, but it does not change the fact that there is a big minority who subscribe to their views.

The one thing that you will find, is that it is actually quite difficult to find reports that I mentioned on the net. They are so infrequently reported outside a few Jewish supporter type sites, which will obviously be dismissed as one sided or biased. However, thats not to say you cannot find them outside of these sites. I will give you a few good links later from sources such as the london times and nbc and a few other, lets call them 'respectable' news sites.

In the mean time, here is a report on some childrens TV from Fox.

wtvt.com/investreptr/jihad.html

All I am doing here, is pointing out that in cases, and in quite a few cases at that, the reasons many Palestinian children are caught in the cross fire is because they are encouraged to get involved in troublesome areas and fire fights going on.

As for the famous picture of that child who was killed while hiding behind a wall with his father, that was a tragic death. They truly were victims caught in the cross fire, but while the Israeli army took immediate responsibility fior his death, they also say that it is not clear who actually killed him as it could have just as easily been the Palestinian gunmen. However, his picture has not stopped being used in the PA media to encourage the hatred and fight. In death, the boys image is still being exploited.
Is that wrong? I dont know, but it certainly does no0thing to encourage a lessoning of tensions and hatred.

[Danny Boy]

Who won; I like you and you input on this site, however, you do yourself no favors in the creditability stakes if you quote Fox news, or any other Murdoch owned media outlet, that includes the Times by the way.
The problem with education is the lack of funds, not helped by the israeli governments illegal withholding of tax’s and other monies due to the Palestinian authorities. You really have to be there to see the repression of the entire Palestinian people, not just the hard liners. The lack of funds and general repression of the same people, allows the likes of Hamas funded schools to flourish. What these children are taught, is in essence, is no different to the bigoted doctrine of the catholic schools of the last (20th) century and before.

PS what is the problem with giving Henrik the link to “Jews against Zionism” and other “yes we are human too” Jewish sites

[Justin]

There are no innocent parties in this whole mess.

There are no innocent parties period. Just over 100 yrs ago the States was guilty of genocide, and since then their policies have caused thousand of deaths, displacements and suffering through out this planet, all the while claiming they have no interest in getting involved with other countries.

This is a pretty gneral and broad statement but I think every one here knows what I mean.

[Justin]

Hamas 2 days after commiting a suicide bombing on a civilian bus in Israel killing women and children has issued a state declaring the cease fire with Israel is over.

The reason Israel smart bombing the car carrying a Hamas leader killing him and two body guards.

The PA to rethink it's position on the roadmap after the car bombing.

[justin]

Some one was posting about education in the Arab school system. Please read the following excerpts.

It's not a wonder the cycle never ends


The following examples were not written or spoken by political leaders — or excerpted from fringe publications. They were taken directly from school textbooks or other educational materials approved by the Palestinian Authority.

The textbooks were examined by the Center for the Monitoring of the Impact of Peace (CMIP). In the words of the researchers, "The results of this study are dismaying. They show that these publications aim to teach the young to hate the Jews in general and Israel in particular."


Second Grade
Study of "A Poem on Palestine" by Mahmoud Al-Shalabi:
For me, the promise of Martyrdom is my song. From Jerusalem, I’ll build my ladder towards eternity."
Our Arabic Language, Grade 2

The teacher must briefly develop a thought on Palestine, for instance:
Arab hearts are devoted to Palestine; they wait for the day when they will be able to liberate it, to throw out the aggressor thief and return to Jerusalem.
Teacher Handbook, Our Arabic Language, Grade 2


Third Grade
Build a sentence containing the following words:
…dies as a Martyr, to defend, our hero, the Homeland…
Our Arabic Language, Grade 3

The teacher must ask the following questions:
Who occupies Jerusalem today? What is our duty towards Jerusalem?
Teacher’s Guide, Our Arabic Language, Grade 3


Fourth Grade
I think that the Jews are the enemies of the Prophet and the believers.

Treachery and disloyalty are character traits of the Jews and one should beware of them.
Islamic Religious Education, Grade 4, pg. 67 & 87


Fifth Grade
My son, know that Palestine is your country…and that its earth is soaked with the blood of the Martyrs.

The final and inexorable outcome shall be the victory of the Muslims over the Jews.

Questions for text comprehension:
4. Name 4 glorious battles that took place on the soil of Palestine?
7. Why must we fight the Jews and throw them out of our country?
Our Arabic Language, Grade 5, pgs. 64-67

In the following sentence, find the subject and the complement:
The Jihad is a religious duty for all Muslims.
Our Arabic Language, Grade 5, p. 70


Sixth Grade
Essay:
2. Write six lines wherein you explain to your friends the merit of Jihad for Allah.
At the end of the lesson, the student must be able to:
Speak for two minutes on the subject "The merit of Jihad for Allah."
Develop the above subject on three to five written paragraphs
Respect the Jihad fighters and ask Allah to have pity for the ones who die
Be guided by the Jihad fighters who fought for Allah
Teacher’s Guide, Our Arabic Language, Grade 6, pg. 62

Objectives:
4. [The student] must learn about the conspiracies of the Jews against the Prophets of Allah.
Teacher’s Guide, Islamic Education, Grade 6, pg. 111


Seventh Grade
[The student] must wish to become one of Allah’s Martyrs.
Teacher’s Guide, Islamic Education, Grade 7, p. 301

Discussion:
4. Why do the Jews hate Muslim unity and want to cause divisions among them?
5. From events happening today, give an example of the evil attempts of the Jews.
Islamic Education, Grade 7, pgs. 16-19

Mother, I will soon leave, prepare the shroud
Mother, I am heading for death…I will not falter
Mother, do not cry for me if I fall
For death does not frighten me, and my destiny is to die in martyrdom
Our Arabic Language, Grade 7, pg. 63


Eighth Grade
As was decided by the League of Nations in 1929, the Al-Burq wall is the South-Western wall of the Al-Asqa Mosque. The Jews state that this site is theirs, and they call it "the Wailing Wall;" but this is not true.
Reading and Literary texts, Grade 8, p. 103

The Muslim sacrifices himself for his faith and fights a Jihad for Allah. He does not know cowardice because he understands that the time of his death is already ordained and that his dying as a Martyr in the field of battle is preferable to dying in bed.
Islamic Education Grade 8, p. 176


Ninth Grade
Write in your exercise books: An event showing the fanaticism of the Jews in Palestine against Muslims or Christians.
Islamic Education, Grade 9, pg. 182

From the Uhud expedition and the episode with the [Jewish] tribe of Al-Nadir, a number of lessons can be learned:
6. Treachery and disloyalty are character traits of the Jews and therefore one should beware of them.
Islamic Education, Grade 9, p. 86-87.


Tenth Grade
The student shall acquire the following values:
Fight imperialism in all of its forms.
Be guided by the actions of the Jihad Arab fighters.
Teacher’s Guide, Modern Arab History and Contemporary Problems, Grade 10, p. 11

Martyrdom is life.
Reading and Literary Texts, Grade 10, p. 171


Eleventh Grade
4. Be guided by the Muslim Jihad in order to liberate the Muslim land from the thieves.
Teacher handbook, Islamic Culture, Grade 11, pg 168

Values and Direction:
Abhor the malicious Imperialists and Zionists that caused the theft of Palestine and the expulsion of its people.
Respect the effort undertaken to liberate Palestine from Zionist conquest.
Adopt the positions taken by the religious thinkers and [military] leaders regarding Jihad as a means to fight against the Zionist occupation.
Teacher handbook, Islamic Education, Grade 11, p. 168


Twelfth Grade
[The student] must retain the following general ideas:
a. Zionism is a racist and aggressor movement.
b. Racial superiority is the essence of Zionism and fascism-nazism.

[The student] must understand the negative influence of Zionism on Arab renaissance and on progress.
Teacher’s Guide, The Contemporary History of the Arabs and the World, Grade 12, pg. 12

Objectives:
5. [The student] shall reach the following conclusion: why the world hates Jews.
6. [The student] shall explain why the Europeans persecuted the Jews. Teacher's Guide, The Contemporary History of the Arabs and the World, Grade 12, pg. 151

Teaching methods:
1. Educational films that clarify certain problems in the Islamic world and the dangers threatening it like:
The Zionist invasion
Zionist terrorist practices.
Emphasize activities:

2. The groups of students must prepare reports on the following themes:
The liberation of Palestine is a responsibility common to all Muslims.
Teacher’s Guide, Islamic Culture, Grade 12, pgs. 169-180

[Henrik]

Justin,

Be careful when you say "Arab School System". It is generalizing far too much, and totally discredits whatever follows in your post. Is the school system the same in Syria, Jordan, Palestine, Libya, Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan, Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Kuweit, Bahrain, The UAE etc?

Also, would you mind quoting where you got that from?

[Justin]

Sorry about that Henrik, since we were talking about Palestine I thought it was understood it was about Arabs in Palestine. However point well made.

www.edume.org/index.htm
That's the site where the research is posted, I can't quite remember where I got the abouve examples as I was surfing for news on Iraq and came across that posted by myself. I'm sure you will find the same if not more info on their site.

regards

[Srrh]

Justin,

Did any palestinian ever make it to the 12th grade ?
;D


S.