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Post by Wycco on Jul 28, 2003 12:49:28 GMT -5
Just read on F3000 that F3000 is to be scrapped in favour of a newly revised "F2" in 2005.
Either Renault or Toyota will be supplying engines. The engines will be more powerfull than the current F3000 engines- no news on the Chassis yet.
Details are sketchy- but I'm anxious to hear more.
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Post by Senninha on Jul 29, 2003 3:10:14 GMT -5
Me too.
This has been ongoing for a while.
Wyc, where did you read the bit about Renault/Toyota?
Chassis no doubt though would be one-make - would go with Lola/Van Diemen/Dallara or something...
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Post by Wycco on Jul 29, 2003 7:44:31 GMT -5
Read it same place as the other article... www.f3000.com (it forwards you to http://www.f3000.flagworld.com)
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Post by Senninha on Jul 29, 2003 9:11:35 GMT -5
Ah, that makes more sense.
It's an 'old' rumour, but with a different twist. F3000 is dead by the end of this year anyway, and has been pretty much since 2000 or so, that's why they brought in the new chassis.
I think the article refers to the V6 Renaults (which don't appear to be shining too much either). What I hope to see happen - as I feel that this would work out best for all parties - is a merger between the Renault V6 championship, International F3000 and the EuroF3000 championships. That way, they should be able to produce 30-car grids with a good depth. I think it's the only way they could compete with the Dallara Nissan World Series.
I'd also like to see the 'new' F3000 go back to the old version where they had rounds other than those that were F1 supports. I don't think having 100% F1 supports is good for the championship, and the rounds in 1998 at Enna, Pau etc were good enough in their own right to stay.
Unfortunately the FIA seemed to want to create it's own 'feeder' formula, which was strange, because as soon as they started trying to do that, F3000 started going downhill, certainly in that respect.... I really wonder sometimes, really I do...
There's also been talk of them introducing pit-stops (I'm not sure if that wasn't mentioned at Silverstone), which would be the biggest mistake ever - they need to keep their own identity instead of trying to be like F1 - because so long as they try to be a mini-f1 they will always be in F1's shadow. the Superfunds, for example, could thrive as a non-F1 feeder series (I guess you could call it a refuge in some instances - Zonta, Gene etc)... THAT'S why that is becoming a big success (that and series organisers RPM seem to really know what they're doing - they brought Spain to F1 didn't they, which no one else achieved over the past 10 years of trying)...
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Post by Wycco on Jul 29, 2003 10:16:47 GMT -5
Aye, I had heard (can't remember if it were Bernie or Max), mention F3000 COULD be rebadged F2 and have a major facelift a while back. (about a year ago).
This is the first I have heard stating "it will change" rather than "it might change".
I do like the idea of a feeder-formula being specifically designed as a talent pool for F1- although, I do not like the idea of it being identical in all aspects:
*Keeping the engine/tyre/chassis constant is good for being able to pick out talnets. *Pitstops are bad- F3000 is about comparing drivers not teams... leave the pitstops to F1.
As far as F3000 following the F1 circus around- I would like to see them race together at the same time- of course to do that safely, F3000s Engine and Chassis would need to be improved greatly (something suggested for the F2 upgrade).
If the two do not race together- then I see no reason for F3000 to be limited to being just F1 support races-
I understand why Bernie/Max do it- so that they (F3000 drivers) are under the eyes of the big F1- teams... As a compromise perhaps when F1 leaves Europe- F3000 could race at other tracks: Paul Ricard, Brands Hatch, Estoril... there are plenty of high-profile tracks in Europe not used by F1.
I think F3000 needs more races- as it is- get lucky (or unlucky) in just a couple of races and it effects your whole season.
F1- one or two lucky/unlucky events isn't usually enough to make or break your season.
I would like to see the F3000/F2 cars comparable to the lowest team in F1.
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Post by julio_montoya on Jul 29, 2003 18:28:40 GMT -5
Ive also heard those rumours. But ive also heard of Bernie wanting to buy Cart Fedex and name it F2 so nothing is sure.
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Post by Senninha on Jul 30, 2003 3:17:02 GMT -5
This is the first I have heard stating "it will change" rather than "it might change". I think now the only hope for F3000 is that it HAS to change. Whether or not this is what's going to happen remains to be seen. But when F2 became F3000, it was changed as a revamp to the series. Ironic really, that they look to be changing it back for the same reasons... I'm not sure making a feeder-formula specifically designed to produce F1 stars is correct. Maybe 2 or 3 drivers (big maximum) can get through a year, and F3000 currently is such that it is too expensive (the drivers you see in 3000 this year have all got pretty good budgets, and have had for most of their career - EVEN the ones who are running out of money) so you're not necessarily getting the best drivers, rather the best with sponsorship. Having a one-make example is all very well, but again, F3000 falls down here. It is VERY obvious that Arden are the team to beat this season in 3000, and much as everyone keeps saying the cars are identical and it's all down to the driver, don't believe that, BCN haven't a hope in hells chance of winning races, no matter who they put in the cars - it's all about money and development (although you do see this to a lesser extent in F3/FF/FR and most other single seater categories). The only way you can combat this is to do something similar to either FPA or the original Open Telefonica series. With regards to Telefonicas, if a driver would win races consistently, they would change his engine with another one for a guy who wasn't winning (or some similar regulation!) so they were more equal. In saying that, for all the time it was running Adrian Campos had the best team by far, although I think he could also argue he was/is a wicked talent spotter and that the best guys won. However, Pantano also raced in the series against Alonso, and would have been perhaps a second off Alonso's pace (this could be completely wrong, but I judge this from memory!), but Alonso was driving for campos and Pantano was driving for some team that was mid-grid standard. In those circumstances it can be difficult for the driver to make the difference. [I'm not saying here, Pantano should have beat Alonso, but in reality I would expect him to be a bit closer at least than he was] FPA on the other hand, had to go from an 'international' series to a club series because after 3 seasons it struggled to get enough professional drivers after it was obvious you could only blame yourself if you didn't win. Unfortunately, racing drivers don't WANT equal cars Having both 3000 and F1 on the grid at the same time would be a good move, I'd like to see two classes to F1, one for rookies, one for the 'pros'. That would work well no doubt, all you have to do is get all the F1 teams to build another 2 cars with slightly less power/speed etc as 'training cars'. Any Class B F3000 cars would be severely penalised for affecting the results of class A (now we have to rely on the FIA to stick to that! ) With regards to supporting F1 - I stand by my view that it does them as much harm as good. It was only in 1999 that all the races had to support F1. Some yes, but I don't believe for one second the F1 teams pay a blind bit of attention to F3000 (or indeed any other lower formula) with odd exceptions such as FW's son, who keeps his eye out for him. The F1 teams are way too busy to be bothering about some boring support race. Bruno Michel probably pays some form of attention though, he strikes me as the sort who would. And you wouldn't say Benetton/Renault have picked some bad drivers out of F3000 in recent years would you? Ditto. It needs more races. How about keeping the 10 we have as F1 supports, and adding races at Pau, Enna, Donington, Thruxton (that would be Awesome!!), Jerez, Estoril or similar places. Perhaps even Brno would be desirable for the Czech audience.
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Post by Senninha on Jul 30, 2003 3:26:30 GMT -5
Another thought.
They need to change the points system. The current crappy minging manky pathetic stupid horrible one that F1 uses is a waste of space.
Provided they get more cars, I'm up for the trusty F3 scoring system - 20-15-12-10-8-6-4-3-2-1 OR keep the same system (which I hate) and include dropped scores. Dropped scores work brilliantly well in FR2000 and rewards the guys who win every race, RATHER than the ones who are in the top 10 every race.
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Post by Henrik on Jul 30, 2003 3:52:30 GMT -5
Interesting comments here, and no doubt something needs to be done in order to revitalize F3000.
A thought crossed my mind as I was reading all this. What happens to all the old F1 cars as they are retired? Could you possibly constitute a sort of F1B grid consisting of last year's models? This way top teams can have an A team running in F1 with all the latest stuff, and a B team running with last year's car. It would certainly provide an interesting race, and could be combined with the normal F1 races. Performance difference would not be so big, and costs could be kept down as no further development would be permited. Imagine an F1 grid with over 30 cars starting!
Another feeder series that is in an strange position at present is Formula Atlantic. There is too much of a gap between Atlantic and CART, and somehow the Indy Lights is beginning to be missed. Could maybe the ex-F3000 cars somehow become Indy Lights?
Imagine the potential ladder. Formula Atlantic to Indy Lights/F3000, then to CART, and on to F1B to finally reach F1.
Hmmmm..........
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Post by Senninha on Jul 30, 2003 4:12:33 GMT -5
A thought crossed my mind as I was reading all this. What happens to all the old F1 cars as they are retired? Could you possibly constitute a sort of F1B grid consisting of last year's models? This way top teams can have an A team running in F1 with all the latest stuff, and a B team running with last year's car. It would certainly provide an interesting race, and could be combined with the normal F1 races. Performance difference would not be so big, and costs could be kept down as no further development would be permited. Imagine an F1 grid with over 30 cars starting! Isn't that what McLaren are doing this season?? Seriously, I think the F1 teams partially use them for testing as they are only a year old, but the two year old cars even would be perfect surely. That is a very good idea. And if the teams would run their own B team themselves, they have no worries about a rival team taking their ideas. It would even cut F1 costs, because they would have to spend the same amount over MORE cars!! (well... maybe!), and would be a great showcase for young talent... Now... all we have to do is send this to the FIA. No, seriously! Continue this discussion and I'll consider putting these ideas to a letter to Mr Mosley (although I doubt he'd listen to someone calling themself a fan )
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Post by Henrik on Jul 30, 2003 4:28:14 GMT -5
ROFL @ Mclaren doing that this year! Somehow I knew somebody would say that. Glad you like the idea, and I'll back you up 150% if you write to Max. Just don't say you are a fan, but rather some very big potential investor.
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Post by julio_montoya on Jul 30, 2003 6:58:28 GMT -5
I dont think F3000 will never be revatelized. The driver lineup is really not attractive. I watched a couple of races this year. It started out as Pantano in front of that Weihlberg guy and it stayed that way for the rest of the race. Next race it was the other way around and stayed the same too. Sure its great to see them on F1 circuits but lets see more overtaking. I dont know any of the specs but i think they should all set up slicks, same engines. But i am a huge fan of British F3, i love F3, its way better than f3000 and i dont even understand why its not on tv as much if not.
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Post by Wycco on Jul 30, 2003 7:57:46 GMT -5
Sen,
Yes, I agree the teams arn't identical: The two Coloni teams and Arden are definately head and shoulders above the rest of the pack.
However, the cars are <i>closer</i> to being the same than they ever would be if made by multiple manufacturers.
I think any point system is better than the current F1- system- so I'd be willing for a change.
Hen,
Interesting idea- one problem though: How can you prevent them upgrading last years cars? I think this would be hard to police.
Julio,
Actually, I think, if you added up all the overtaking manoveurs from F3000 and F1- F3000 would have more overtaking- lead changes are rare- but mid-pack is usually full of activity. I think F1 is more in need of overtaking than F3000 is. Although, F3000 could certainly do with some more up-front.
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Post by Senninha on Jul 30, 2003 8:24:18 GMT -5
Wyc, I agree with that. My point was more that it could be even closer. But that's unlikely to happen. F3000's problem I can only assume is that there is more money in there, so it becomes easier to make MORE of an advantage (therefore less equal). In some cases however, a few different chassis can be better (e.g. CART), and this seasons UK FF championship. We have the van diemans (now without a true works outfit) against the works Rays. There are still some Mygales in there, and the championship this season is sooo close, and sooo open. It doesn't make it easy to identify the best drivers (rather just the best driver from each chassis), but the racing is better than if they were all van diemans say, because each car has slightly different characteristics. Whatever, it's just a thought... how equal do you want them... better racing often comes from 'unequal' cars Upgrading the cars. Not too difficult. You just freeze the cars, throw stickers on everything so they can't be tampered with. Use 'parc ferme conditions' as much as they do in F1 this season perhaps. Whether this will police adequately I don't know. But there is a definite difference in this area with Brtisih F3 - the championship class and scholorship class are visibly different. Julio and Wycco: After Silverstone the number of overtaking manouvres in F3000 and F1 IMO are probably equal!! lol!! There were 2 in the F3000 race on Janis (who was going backwards) and that was it for that race. As you're undoubtedly aware, there were a few more in the Grand Prix!! As Julio points out, the racing is better in F3 - although there have been complaints around Brit F3 this year that there hasn't been enough overtaking here either... go figure! Julio, I'm not sure where you're residing anymore (you seem to be a bit of everywhere most of the time! but certainly in the UK there is better coverage of British F3 over International F3000, although other championship such as the Euroseries get worse coverage than F3000, but I think that's as much because they don't race in the UK rather than anything else. Bizzarely (again IMO) F3 is perhaps the 3rd most popular 4 wheel circuit motorsport (not rally) in the UK (above F3000) - maybe that should say highest profile - I don't know where CART or IRL fit in, and CART does get very good attendances. That is to say, Brit F3 is behind F1 (fair enough) and the British Touring Car Championship (strange - but then I was always a single seater nut primarily!!). Mind, that's probably wrong also, because the Le Mans 24 Hours is something huge in the UK, if not with the general public, with the 50,000 (+?) that go over to France every year for it! Who knows, I was trying to estimate that on race day attendances at the UK circuits! An addition to this: I think F3000's worst problem was to introduce the new chassis. The old one was, fair enough, out of date and may have been less like an F1 car to look at, but I think it was more suitable to racing. That and the fact that F3000 for example is losing out by drivers such as Raikkonen, Button, Massa, Sato even being given F1 drives bypassing the formulae.
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Post by Wycco on Jul 30, 2003 8:33:07 GMT -5
Sen- there were more than 2 in the F3000 race... just off the top of my head I can think of 4... Kiesa alone overtook at least 3 people that they showed on TV.
1) Kiesa overtook whoever was behind Schroeder (mind blank) 2) Kiesa overtook Schroeder. 3) Kiesa overtook Janis. 4) Schroeder overtook Janis.
OK 4 overtaking manoveors isn't much- but I'm sure there had to be some off-TV, and I'm sure there had to be some I've just plain forgotten...
Agreed- Silverstone was the exception- there were more overtaking moves in F1 than F3000... but Silverstone was the exception this year. (France was a pretty boring F3000 race too!)
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