|
|
Post by Henrik on Jun 5, 2003 9:18:45 GMT -5
|
|
|
|
Post by Wycco on Jun 5, 2003 10:15:58 GMT -5
I never thought the "WMD" issue was a valid reason to enter Iraq anyway- nor did I ever think Iraq was a threat to the US. As I said way back then... Removing Saddam was more like a charity to the Iraqi people than helping the US. I was never fully for or against the war- but the lack of WMD does not "Unjustify the war" it "Unjustifys President Bush"... There were other reasons to attack Iraq. Bush simply lied to the American people to try to get America to support him in the war... Saddam was an evil-evil man, WMD or not- I'm glad Saddam has been removed- it is good for Iraq- long term. Now if we can just remove Bush too!!!!!  |
|
|
|
Post by raptor22 on Jun 5, 2003 11:47:39 GMT -5
I never thought the "WMD" issue was a valid reason to enter Iraq anyway- nor did I ever think Iraq was a threat to the US. this true it never was a threat. listen to yourself. You're still justifying murdering innocent people. There is a diplomatic process which if followed can be successful. War is never an answer to anything. War serves War. I believe it unjustifies the entie american government as a falacy to democrasy. The USA is the most subtle dictatorship around. Pres Bush, stole the rpesidency when the minorty voted for him. And the american people allowed it. There are no excuses. It's about time all americans apoogise to the world for the evil deeds of their elected officials. Do you have guts to get off the fence??? Why is always only about America, Do ou relaise how selfish that is. Read your line to yourself over and over till you see it. There are neer reasons to attack anyone's sovereignty. Iraq is an independant country and diplomatic process should have be allowed to work. Instead the power of th buck won the day as it always does. George Bush is an Evil evil evil and stupid man. The whole world should declare war on the US. It good for us all long term. amen, i'll drink to that, but I'll save the party for when America takes responsibility for the attrocities it's inflicted on the poor of the world. |
|
|
|
Post by raptor22 on Jun 5, 2003 11:49:21 GMT -5
please don't reagrd my post as a personal attack. It's not. I'm sure you're a reasonable man Mr Wycco but I feel very strongly that the American view is not the right one.
|
|
|
|
Post by Srrh on Jun 5, 2003 12:17:21 GMT -5
R22, I am not sure about that... If you look at it as a zero sum game...cold. About the same number of Iraqis died (let us say 200.000, and I am generous it wasn't that bad) as a result of the invasion, then if SH had stayed another 10 years in power. So knowing the age of SH, it is conceivable that he would have stayed, ooh, I dunno, 20 years in power. So net gain for the Iraqis; 10 years of SH (roughly 200.000 dead). As for "there is no reason to attack's someone soverignty" I profoundly disagree. Rwanda, Cambodia...all the way to N.Korea where I think that sacro-saint sovereignty should be RAPED and the people fed something esle then bull-shit!! And I also  to Wycco's idea of Bush removal.... I can't beleive that douche-bag was elected...oh, wait, he wasn't!! ;D s. |
|
|
|
Post by Srrh on Jun 5, 2003 12:53:14 GMT -5
Let's us turn form Bush for a second...
today on BBCnews;
A dossier including the claim Iraq that could launch weapons of mass destruction in 45 minutes was returned to intelligence chiefs at least six times for changes, the BBC has learned.
A source close to British intelligence has told BBC diplomatic correspondent Barnaby Mason that Downing Street returned draft versions of the dossier to the Joint Intelligence Committee "six to eight times".
He said Prime Minister Tony Blair was involved in the process at one point.
Mr Blair has vigorously denied that the document was "sexed up" in order to garner support for war.
I think (hope) Blair is fucked...but of course no one will go after Murdoch and his propaganda machine (which allowed Blair his litlle excursion in the desert)...
The real people responsible for this shit are not elected. They don't need to be.
s.
|
|
|
|
Post by Wycco on Jun 5, 2003 13:50:12 GMT -5
please don't reagrd my post as a personal attack. It's not. I'm sure you're a reasonable man Mr Wycco but I feel very strongly that the American view is not the right one. No offense taken Raptor, although, I assure you my view is NOT the typical "American" view anyway. I think most people seem to take Issues such as the Iraqi conflict as black an white... either all right OR all wrong... You asked me to get off the fence- but the truth is- I see both sides as being irrational over the war... however here are some "Solid" statements for you. - Bush DID make his mind up to attack Iraq without even considering the alternatives.
- Bush DID lie to make Iraq seem more of a threat then it really was.
- Bush IS guilty of letting religion cloud his rationality.
- Bush IS an idiot and a very bad President.
- There probably were better alternatives to war. The US did not seriously explore the alternatives.
However... - Saddam WAS a threat to his neighours AND the Iraqi people.
- Saddam WAS responsible for WAY more innocent deaths than the war caused.
- The majority of Iraqi's welcomed the troops entering Iraq.
- The majority of Iraqi's OPPOSED Saddam. My core political belief is that any ruling government that IS NOT supported by the populace is illegal.
- The war accomplished the goal of removing Saddam- and has been widely hurrahed by the people of Iraq.
So you see- its not a matter of staying on the fence... the truth is- this isn't a black or white issue! The war has accomplished a good and moral thing. Far from selfish- the people that stand to gain the most are the Iraqi's... I don't think the war was the best solution- BUT it sure as heck beat just sitting back and allowing Saddam to torture and kill his country men- or to let the Iraqi people starve under the UN boycott of Iraq. In Conclusion: The war wasn't necessarily the best solution... but it was A solution and the world IS better off as a result of the war happening! |
|
|
|
Post by raptor22 on Jun 5, 2003 18:41:53 GMT -5
i disagree that it was the best solution. It was the best solution for Americans and their way of life but it's bad news for the 3rd world. This war was only to seve american interests and nothing else. It's purpose is too enrich a handful of americans and british people at the expense of the poor. And all americans do is sit by and watch it happen. Lets see what happens in 2005. Then we'll see just how sorry Americans are that they allowed a man like GWB to run THEIR country. Somehow I doubt anything will change. AS long as the poverty in the world can be blamed on suitable scapegoats ie, militiamen in South American government, Black leaders in Africa, The Arabs, The French, The dangerous Belgians  , the deceptive dutch  , America will live in peace and properity, all created by the blood of africans, arabs and everybody else whose defenceless,............including those living in your very own city slums. America is a sick place. it has no right to rule the world. It has not earned it, It has stolen it. |
|
|
|
Post by Danny Boy on Jun 5, 2003 21:29:20 GMT -5
Raptor;
If I was that obnoxious ass licking prick Paula Abdull, from American Idols 2, I would be standing up applauding you and saying how beautiful you were. As it is, I am a man who has a political conscience; a man who does not think that as long as it is good for me, it is good for the rest of the world: a man who has personally witnessed corruption at the highest levels in England and abroad; And I stand up and say, not only are you right but given the chance, I would vote for you.
|
|
|
|
Post by Henrik on Jun 6, 2003 1:52:48 GMT -5
Good comments all of you. Thank you!
There are so many disturbing issues related to this war, and I am sure we have not seen the end of this. As much as the Bush administration wishes to "forget" about the official reasons they used to go to war, and instead now seem to use some sort of "the end justifies the means" attitude, I hope it will in some way come back and bite them.
In recent history in the US, we saw a president be impeached for having lied about a sexual relationship. The US public was in an uproar about this, many saying that if he lied about having had sex with Monica, how could he be trusted to run the country. Yet it seems a majorit of Americans can accept being lied to about accusing countries of having WMD so that a war can be carried out.
Clinton had sex, Bush has had people killed. What lies do you think where the most serious?
I suppose there can be hope that the way in which the Bush administration justified the war will cause them to have to resign, and perhaps a new government can be elected. There is still hope.
|
|
|
|
Post by Topcontender on Jun 6, 2003 7:15:17 GMT -5
Where are the WMD's?
That is the question that seems to be on everyone's mind globally. MOst are now saying and thinking that "since we have not found them, they must not of existed." For that i say this, we have not found saddam yet, but we know he is there in baghdad hiding out. Hell we haven't found half of the high profile guys that know anything.
1. A buddy i have at Centcom says that all of the people that have been captured that know anything about the weapons, are talking on a set script. Every answer is a canned answer that was given to them before the war.
2. Many of the Iraqi scientists still will not come foward. They still fear saddam and the others.
As for the MSNBC article, it looks rather slanted.
|
|
|
|
Post by Wycco on Jun 6, 2003 7:24:00 GMT -5
i disagree that it was the best solution. Raptor, I'm not entirely sure where you got that from my post... I stated repeatedly it wasn't the best solution there were better alternatives! What I said was- it was A solution but not the best solution. Doing something and liberating the Iraqi's is better than just sitting by and watching a whole nation starve to death. |
|
|
|
Post by Wycco on Jun 6, 2003 7:26:51 GMT -5
BTW- I fail to see how a multi-billion dollar war makes Americans rich!
Can someone tell me how- a war that cost $3000 per head is supposed to make me rich?
|
|
|
|
Post by Srrh on Jun 6, 2003 7:32:53 GMT -5
In a BBC interview on Thursday, Mr Blix said he had been disappointed with the tip-offs provided by British and US intelligence.
"Only in three of those cases did we find anything at all, and in none of these cases were there any weapons of mass destruction, and that shook me a bit, I must say."
He said UN inspectors had been promised the best information available.
"I thought - my God, if this is the best intelligence they have and we find nothing, what about the rest?"
Saddam Hussein's regime might have hidden weapons, or it might have destroyed them, Mr Blix said.
But following the fall of Saddam Hussein, he said, the conditions were now right for the truth to come out either way.
Both US and British intelligence sources have told the BBC that evidence against Iraq was distorted in order to justify the war against Iraq.
It's getting worse.
Me think Tony is going to loose his Job over this...
So if you look at it coldly
-Saddam is not in power
-Tony could loose power
-Georges could loose power
Actually, the result of this war could be very very good.
s.
|
|
|
|
Post by Srrh on Jun 6, 2003 7:42:13 GMT -5
BTW- I fail to see how a multi-billion dollar war makes Americans rich! Not ALL americans... But some of them, like Miss Rize who has an oil tanker named after her...or that Cheney fellow, or even Baby Bush who, if I am not mystaken, has a certain taste for anything with a remote smell of petrol... Is it not funny (well, it is not, really) how the oil wels started functionning before water and electricity...is it not funny that while there is no security in the streets of any major city, the oil wels are defended by "America's best".... There is NO DOUBT in my mind that this was the first colonising war of the 21st century.... After the Decline of the American empire, we are now entering the barbarian invasions... s. |
|
Don't Die Before You Live...
, America will live in peace and properity, all created by the blood of africans, arabs and everybody else whose defenceless,............including those living in your very own city slums.
