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Post by who cares on May 9, 2003 16:40:43 GMT -5
Taxes are there for the greater good. Not for you, not for your mother who is doing fine, but for those who are not and for society as a whole. To make the placve a better place for all.
So those who cannot afford to pay for the things you take for granted like food will not be left to rot.
Not everyone owns a car and can take their trash to the dump, and besides if someone else didnt take it then you can be sure you'd have trash everywhere, if you're happy to let society degrade around you then thats whats going to happen.
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Post by smokingun on May 13, 2003 6:47:07 GMT -5
i don't know about the west, but here in Goa, out of the 100 rupess i pay in taxes, 80 rupess would go in kickbacks of some sort or the other, and that is why paying taxes hurts so much. i would glady use up the full amount and build a road or spend it for some other public work, one which i can supervise and know that some bastard politicion isn't pocketing my money sitting on his corrupt fanny. most of us work very very hard for the little that we are payed. and considering where my money ends up, taxation is really extortion with a more dignified name.
smokingun
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Post by Wycco on May 13, 2003 8:01:46 GMT -5
Not everyone owns a car and can take their trash to the dump, Well- let them pay a private collection agency $20 a month rather than the $50 a month it takes to get the government to do it!!!!!  Let them save money too! Interesting point about taxes- here in the US around 1900 people payed approximately 5% of their income to the government. In 2000 it was closer to 35%. Why? Why does the government require proportionately 8 times as much income? We're richer now- more densly populated (which saves money for government)... A large reason is redistribution of income... and the huge costs of HIREING PEOPLE to distribute the income. By giving 14 year olds money to whore around and get pregnant- it is as if the government is condoning and encouraging high-school girls to get pregnant. I'm not saying take away all safety nets... but if the safety nets end up taking away half your paycheck to encourage people to whore around... something is seriously wrong. |
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Post by glendo on May 13, 2003 16:04:55 GMT -5
firstly... in australia it is compulsory to vote. everyone votes in australia.
secondly.. back to your concept of only allowing the "winning team"(voters/republican or democrat) to reap the rewards of voting their leader into office, and only "the winning team" gets the perks he/she offers (tax cuts)is completely against your forefathers words, the very words that americanism pushes on the world.
"all man are created equal"
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Post by who won on May 13, 2003 18:03:07 GMT -5
How do you know it would be cheaper for those who dont have a car to get a private firm to take their trash, and besides, what if they cant afford that?
Its called a society. If you want a selfish world then the consequences will be even greater divide between rich and poor, more crime and generally speaking an uglier worse off society as a whole.
The society you live in is set up in such a way that it rewards massively to at times obscene levels some people, others it does not. If the same society that rewards the rich chooses to ignore the ones it does not reward then society will fall apart.
In general Europe is a far more liveable place with generally speaking far less of the societal problems seen in the US. Less drug use, way less crime, less divorces, less single parents, higher standard of living in general. Why? because it acts more like a society and for those who fall through the net there is less likelyhood that their only option to feed themselves is crime.
Its not perfect, but the society in general is fairer.
For your sake I hope you never find yourself out of work in the US for a slightly extended period of time, if it ever happens, you'll be in real stuck, with what you propose you'd be on the streets in days.
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Post by who won on May 13, 2003 18:23:54 GMT -5
Speaking of the great society. - This article is actually drug related so may belong in the drug thread, but the extreme stats here could well relate to any subject, pollution, murders, etc.
"
You might be interested to know: the United States has 5% of the world’s population, but 25% of the world’s prison population!
Today 1 in 32 adults in America are in correctional supervision, 3.1% of the adult population! In 1985 16.3% of the total prison population was drug related.
Today with a serious ‘drug war’ effort/expense we now have a prison population which is 56% drug related. In spite of over 700,000 drug related Americans in jail, and over 1.6 million marijuana arrests in 2001, the drugs are flowing as freely as ever.
Our total prisoner incidence is 699 per 100,000 population. In China it is 103 per 100,000, in Europe on average it is under 100. We have more prisoners in jails for drug related crime than all Europe for all crimes combined, and they have 100 million more citizens!
interestingly, the US is also responsible for 25% of the worlds greenhouse gasses.
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Post by glendo on May 14, 2003 5:44:12 GMT -5
.... and 75% of the world's problems!  |
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Post by Wycco on May 14, 2003 12:54:47 GMT -5
who won...
errmm... do I need to find the interpol statistics again... The US has a much lower crime rate than many European nations- especially the UK- perhaps the closest culturally to the US. (yet one of Europes biggest crime hotbeds)
More people in prison- because those that do wrong are punnished- not just let out to continue commiting crimes!
(we've been over this already- perhaps you missed it)
Average wage in the US is also higher than the average wage in Europe. In fact- The US is second only to Luxembourg for average GDP per capita. (38k to 36k US$)
According to the United Nations these are the top 10 countries for "quality of life":
Rank Country
1 Norway
2 Sweden
3 Canada
4 Belgium
5 Australia
6 United States
7 Iceland
8 Netherlands
9 Japan
10 Finland
Note: Only 3 European nations made it on the list above the US
Would you like to find some stats to back up your outlandish claims that the US has a lower quality of life than Europe and lower average income?
BTW- what was the point behind the drug tyrade? That has nothing to do with taxes... Unless you have some proof that lowered tax rates causes raised drug use.
Good luck prooving that!
BTW- those interpol stats:
Crimes / 100,000 residents (2002 stats or next most recent figures available)
NZ (1997) - 12600
UK (Eng/Wales) - 9900
Canada - 8600
UK (Scotland) - 8200
Australia (2000)- 7500
US- 4200
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Post by Wycco on May 14, 2003 13:30:03 GMT -5
Top 3 States With Highest Unemployment 1) Oregon 7.6% 2) Washington 7.0% 3) Alaska 6.8% Top 3 States With Highest % of income as Taxes 1) Alaska 2) Washington 3) Oregon So much for your theory that low taxes causes unemployment!!!! Incidentally- of the lowest taxed states South Dakota, North Dakota, and Nebraska... Only North Dakota had above US average unemployment. Source: 216.239.33.104/search?q=cache:SXCNI6wnDIQC:www.ucexpress.com/resources/bulletins/2002/2002averageRateByState.pdf+states+tax+rate&hl=en&ie=UTF-8money.cnn.com/pf/features/lists/state_unemployment/Now, since you seem set on comparing the US to Europe... here are some unemployment figures (all mid 90's) comparing some higher-tax Europe countries to the lower-tax US. Granted- these figures are slightly old- but were taken at approximately the same time for all countries. US: 5.9% UK: 8.2% Sweden: 8% Spain: 22.9% Portugal: 7.2% Ireland: 11.9% Germany: 8.8% France: 11.6% Denmark: 7% Belgium: 9.3% Luxembourg: 2.7% *Note Luxembourg's taxes are lower than the European average! |
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Post by who won on May 14, 2003 17:39:39 GMT -5
No Wycco
But not having a policy with a decent safety net and redistribution of income for those less fortunate than you will lead to a far more divisive and dysfunctional society.
Its a selfish society, and apart from the few who enjoy the fruits of the society set up for them is one where most people cannot even afford basic health care.
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Post by who won on May 14, 2003 17:47:07 GMT -5
if stats are what you want
Home ownership:
Ireland 82% Japan 60
Spain 80 Portugal 59
Luxembourg 77 United States 59
Norway 73 Finland 58
Belgium 72 Sweden 55
Greece 72 France 54
Italy 68 Netherlands 46
United Kingdom 67 Germany 40
Canada 64 Switzerland 29
Denmark 60
America's decline in home ownership is symbolic of a larger erosion in living standards, which Americans have met in two ways. The first is that America has gone deeply into debt to maintain its lifestyle. The second is that families have been able to hold ground only because wives have joined their husbands in the work force. (Note: this is a comment on the difficulty of making ends meet, not on working women!) Europe and Japan suffer much less from either of these problems:
Percent of families earning two paychecks:
United States 58%
Japan 33
France 33
Italy 20
Germany 18
Netherlands 16
Average Household Debt
United States $71,500
United Kingdom 35,500
Germany 27,700
France 27,650
Netherlands 5,000
Switzerland 800
Average Household Savings
Japan $45,118
Switzerland 19,971
Denmark 18,405
France 17,649
Germany 17,042
Norway 15,196
Netherlands 14,282
Finland 12,387
Sweden 10,943
United Kingdom 7,451
United States 4,201
Percent of income spent on credit cards:
United Kingdom 12%
United States 10
France 8
Japan 4
Switzerland 3
Netherlands 2
Germany 2
Government debt per person:
Belgium $16,423
Japan 14,049
United States 12,433
Sweden 9,541
Netherlands 9,368
Canada 8,597
Norway 5,498
United Kingdom 4,635
Finland 2,798
Germany 977
Trade Balance (millions):
Japan +$77,110
Germany +76,713
Netherlands +7,990
Canada +5,047
Norway +3,769
Denmark +2,426
Finland -250
United Kingdom -37,958
United States -113,240
Current Account Balance (millions):
Japan +$56,783
Germany +55,477
Netherlands +6,962
Norway +226
Denmark -1,402
Finland -4,895
Canada -16,593
United Kingdom -34,065
United States -105,900
Investment (percent of GDP):
Japan 30.6%
Norway 28.8
Switzerland 26.6
Finland 24.8
Canada 22.0
Netherlands 21.4
Germany 19.9
Sweden 19.7
United Kingdom 19.2
Denmark 18.0
United States 17.1
INCOME INEQUALITY
As mentioned earlier, America has the greatest inequality of income and wealth in the industrialized world:
Inequality of income (0 = most equal society, 100 = the least equal):
United States 99
Canada 83
Netherlands 82
Switzerland 79
United Kingdom 78
Germany 66
Norway 60
Sweden 60
Size of Middle Class (More):
Japan 90.0%
Sweden 79.0
Norway 73.4
Germany 70.1
Switzerland 67.2
Netherlands 62.5
Canada 58.5
United Kingdom 58.5
United States 53.7
Poverty level (More):
United States 17.1%
Canada 12.6
United Kingdom 9.7
Switzerland 8.5
Germany 5.6
Sweden 5.3
Norway 5.2
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Post by who won on May 14, 2003 17:50:25 GMT -5
Deaths from malnutrition (per million):
Men Women
United States 7 13
France 4 9
Canada 5 7
Japan 2 1
United Kingdom 1 2
Norway 0 1
Head Start (percent of age group enrolled in preschool)
2-year olds 3-year olds 4-year olds
France 35.7% 96.3 100
Norway 22.8 31.6 44.1
Finland 20.2 16.0 19.6
Germany 9.1 32.3 71.6
United Kingdom 1.3 25.9 69.2
United States 0.0 28.9 49.0
HEALTH CARE
Health Care Expenditures (percent of GDP)4
United States 13.4%
Canada 10.0
Finland 9.1
Sweden 8.6
Germany 8.4
Netherlands 8.4
Norway 7.6
Japan 6.8
United Kingdom 6.6
Denmark 6.5
Doctors' incomes:
United States $132,300
Germany 91,244
Denmark 50,585
Finland 42,943
Norway 35,356
Sweden 25,768
Percent of population covered by public health care:
ALL NATIONS (except below) 100%
France, Austria 99
Switzerland, Spain, Belgium 98
Germany 92
Netherlands 77
United States 40
Average paid maternity leave (as of 1991; this changed with Clinton's signing of the 1993 Family and Medical Leave Act):
Sweden 32 weeks
France 28
United Kingdom 18
Norway 18
Denmark 18
Japan 14
Germany 14
Netherlands 12
United States 0
Life Expectancy (years):
Men Women
Japan 76.2 82.5
France 72.9 81.3
Switzerland 74.1 81.3
Netherlands 73.7 80.5
Sweden 74.2 80.4
Canada 73.4 80.3
Norway 73.1 79.7
Germany 72.6 79.2
Finland 70.7 78.8
United States 71.6 78.6
United Kingdom 72.7 78.2
Denmark 72.2 77.9
Infant Mortality Rate (per 1,000 live births):
United States 10.4
United Kingdom 9.4
Germany 8.5
Denmark 8.1
Canada 7.9
Norway 7.9
Netherlands 7.8
Switzerland 6.8
Finland 5.9
Sweden 5.9
Japan 5.0
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Post by who on May 14, 2003 17:52:07 GMT -5
some good ones
Percent who have not had intercourse by age 20:
Boys Girls
Belgium 61 63
Netherlands 58 62
Germany 33 28
Norway 33 25
United Kingdom 24 23
France 9 25
United States 12 16
Percent of sexually active single 15 to 19-year olds using birth control:
Germany 95%
United Kingdom 92
Netherlands 88
Norway 87
Sweden 79
Denmark 70
United States 56
Teen pregnancies per 1,000 teenagers:
United States 98.0
United Kingdom 46.6
Norway 40.2
Canada 38.6
Finland 32.1
Sweden 28.3
Denmark 27.9
Netherlands 12.1
Japan 10.5
Total teen abortions per 1,000 teenagers:
United States 44.4
Norway 21.1
Sweden 19.6
Denmark 18.2
Finland 17.9
United Kingdom 16.9
Canada 16.2
Japan 5.9
Netherlands 5.5
CRIME
People per police officer:
Sweden 328
Canada 358
United Kingdom 400
United States 459
Netherlands 553
Japan 556
Denmark 594
France 632
Finland 643
Norway 661
Annual reports of police brutality (per 100,000 people)
United States 92.5
United Kingdom 6.0
France 0.7
Prisoners (per 1,000 people):
United States 4.2
United Kingdom 1.0
Germany 0.8
Denmark 0.7
Sweden 0.6
Japan 0.4
Netherlands 0.4
Death row inmates:
United States 2,124
Japan 38
Europe and Canada 0
Percent of households with a handgun:
United States 29%
Finland 7
Germany 7
Canada 5
Norway 4
Europe 4
Netherlands 2
United Kingdom 1
Looking at the above statistics, one would think that Europe is soft on crime, while the U.S. approach to law and order is based on no-nonsense deterrence. In reality, Europe is relatively crime-free, and the U.S. has the worst crime rate in the world:
Murders committed with handguns annually:
United States 8,915
Switzerland 53
Sweden 19
Canada 8
United Kingdom 7
Murder rate (per 100,000 people):
United States 8.40
Canada 5.45
Denmark 5.17
Germany 4.20
Norway 1.99
United Kingdom 1.97
Sweden 1.73
Japan 1.20
Finland 0.70
Murder rate for males age 15-24 (per 100,000 people):
United States 24.4
Canada 2.6
Sweden 2.3
Norway 2.3
Finland 2.3
Denmark 2.2
United Kingdom 2.0
Netherlands 1.2
Germany 0.9
Japan 0.5
there are hundreds of other stats that are as bad or worse but I wont continue.
We can all post stats.
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Post by who won on May 14, 2003 18:01:09 GMT -5
just in case
reproduced from WHERE WE STAND, by Michael Wolff, Peter Rutten, Albert Bayers III, and the World Bank Research Team (New York: Bantam Books
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Post by JWK on May 15, 2003 0:53:23 GMT -5
*ahem*
what a monster...
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