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Post by pabs on Jan 23, 2003 16:16:23 GMT -5
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Post by Henrik on Jan 24, 2003 2:26:18 GMT -5
That's messed up Pabs!!
The silly things people with too much money will do at times.
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Post by Srrh on Feb 6, 2003 10:26:57 GMT -5
Incredible. There are perceptions and then there is reality… Since Pabs prefers El Tiempo, I had to change my readings… So Pabs, do you know José Navia ? Two weeks ago he wrote something that put me on my ass. Check this out, according to him, there are over 3000 “vengeful” homicides per annum in Col. Between January and September 2002, 2907 people died in “honor” killings, which represent 16% of all killings for that period. In medellin, on the 9th of November 2002, a young 17 year old who had been slaped in the face, saw his honor “cleaned” when his family asked for reparation. 30 people ended up wounded on the sidewalk, 3 died. In Bogotá, out of 1460 murders, 282 were justified by vengeance, 33 by terrorsim, 167 by theft, and fights made 312 victims. Navia then writes “Even if those facts and numbers end up drowned in the political conflict afflicting the country, numbers indicate that in Bogotá for example, vengeful death are more frequent then death tied to terrorism or theft.” Freaky article.... S...
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Post by pabs on Feb 8, 2003 17:10:56 GMT -5
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Post by Srrh on Feb 10, 2003 9:13:27 GMT -5
Hmmm, the BBC didn't know who did it. And as a matter or fact, nor does CNN: "Although no group has claimed responsibility, Vice President Francisco Santos said the blast was the work of the Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia, or FARC"
Santos and Uribe think it's the FARC....big f**ing surprise...
On the other hand: "" Thousands of Colombians have marched through the capital, Bogota, to call for peace after the car bomb attack which killed 33 at an elite city club on Friday. Wearing white T-shirts, people from all walks of life turned out to chant "life is sacred" and call for an end to the decades-old civil war. The march ended with an open-air Mass in a park at which Roman Catholic Cardinal Pedro Rubiano urged people to continue peaceful protests "in the face of terrorism".
The BBC's Jeremy McDermott reports from Bogota that, despite the march against violence, the government is talking of more war, rather then peace"
Another governmnent wiping itself with the wish of the people...
In a related story: "Four bomb technicians from the US Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms went to work at the scene of the blast on Sunday under an agreement with the Colombian Government."
With technicians like that, we're already assured that the terrorists will be left wing...
S...h
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Post by pabs on Feb 10, 2003 12:36:10 GMT -5
Srrh,
I know we have discussed this before, but I still have to hear how you propose to end the conflict in Colombia. I'm a big supporter of the military way; that comes as no surprise to anyone. But when the people of Colombia say they want peace I am inclined to think they meant they want the FARC, ELN and paramilitary groups gone. In fact, I think most peolpe support the government's war against these groups. That's why I don't think the government is "wiping itself" with the wishes of the people.
As for the perpetrators being left wing....who else can it be? The paras? I very much doubt it. It's not their MO and they have no reason to go after the Nogal.
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Post by Srrh on Feb 10, 2003 13:51:03 GMT -5
Pabs, My point is that the state demonizing of the FARC doesn't work. Uribe's gov. is crying "wolf". 1)The FARC is usually rather proud of its deeds. 2)They haven't claimed this one. ...so why blame the FARC ? 3)The extreme right militias in Colombia are as bad as the left wing ones. 4)They could have as well planted that bomb. ...why blame the FARC ? 5)Many other groups (such as drugs cartel) have done exactly that in the past. ...why blame the FARC ? 6)Enormous popular demonstrations are asking for talks (again, as it happens rather frequently). Knowing all that, I dunno how "I propose to end the conflict" but certainly not by "talking more war rather then peace" and demonizing one single group (which if you remember, had some valid social points when it started decades ago), which basically goes against any logic, given the 6 points above. Uribe's predecessor had some good ideas...the cease fire was one of them...i'd rather let diplomats talk then bullets...especially in this war, where more civilians get killed then combatants... I feel Uribe doesn't want peace. He wants victory... I think someone should tell him to sit on his pride, go sit his ass down with the others and start TALKING !! Their is no victory to be gained. Especially not for the people aka collateral damages. S...
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Post by Pabss on Feb 10, 2003 14:26:03 GMT -5
Srrh,
1. The FARC don't always claim responsability for their actions right away. Now if you go to their website you will see that they were telling people "nos vemos el 7 a las 6". Well that's right about the time the bomb went off. Was it a threat maybe? Who knows, but it is rather odd to me.
2. The paramilitaries (right wing militias) are just as bad, yes. But, they still have to take their war to the cities, and to my knowledge they have never detonated a car-bomb anywhere. In fact, the paramilitaries have restricted themselves to what they call their "military objectives". These include guerrilla installations, logistic lines, and supporters. They have yet to attack government facilities, let alone a social club where NOBODY sides with the FARC. How do I know this? I know plenty of people who are members and just about everyone in their board of directors is a businessman or politician. They wouldn't let anyone with even remote ties to the FARC to join their club. But the FARC have been taking their war to the cities for the last few months. This is consistent with their recent actions. Furthermore, it is rather well-known that these militias are favored by many within the government and the higher social tiers. Why would they go after their gathering place? Makes no sense at all.
3. Drug cartels with as much military power as the Medellin and Cali cartel do not exist anymore. There are no big-name drug lords like Escobar anymore. The few lesser cartel that still exist are too small and do not have the rather violent desires that Escobar had. And there has not been a terrorist attack linked to drug cartels in Colombia for about 10 years.
4. People don't want talks. Last time we had talks the FARC made a mockery out of the entire nation. The government were made fools. They kept giving cencessions to the FARC while they never gave one. not a single one. That little safe haven that Pastrana gave them gave zero results and the people were sick of it. That's why we elected Uribe. The FARC had a whole bunch of requests that were virtually not possible. But yet, the government listened. Not once the FARC talked about a cease-fire and if anything their drug operations and military operations expanded because they now had a whole region of the country where they could safely train their troops, plan operations, and send drug planes out of. The diplomatic way will yield no results.
5. Do you really believe the FARC are still fighting for the people?!?!?!? Whatever ideology they might have had back in the 60s is now gone. They one but one thing: POWER.
6. Military personnel are the bulk of the victims of this war: not civilians. You can check the numbers.
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Post by Srrh on Feb 10, 2003 15:01:28 GMT -5
5. Do you really believe the FARC are still fighting for the people?!?!?!? Whatever ideology they might have had back in the 60s is now gone. They one but one thing: POWER. 6. Military personnel are the bulk of the victims of this war: not civilians. You can check the numbers. 5. No I don't. I believe they did at their beginning though. Today, they're clearly fighting for power. Hence fuck them. But not just "them". The others too. They're just as bad. 6. I am. But it is rather confusing. Sources please ? But again, let me state their is a BIG difference between peace and victory. I don't think most people care who can claim "has the biggest dick". I trust they just want to be able to move around and enjoy life without the paranoia of death all the time. The fact that governmental forces obliterate the enemy, or forces them to surrender, or get them to diplomatically sign a treaty is detail to most people. They just want all this butcherry to stop. No matter how...And armed conflict obviously ain't working... S...
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Post by Srrh on Feb 10, 2003 15:21:19 GMT -5
I'm a big supporter of the military way; that comes as no surprise to anyone Dear Pablito, According to Human Rights watch "COLUMBIA’S MILITARY has had the worst human rights record in the Western hemisphere for the last decade. More than half of all military officers have been directly implicated in the activities of the death squads. The death toll only mounted as U.S. weapons and equipment flowed in. More trade unionists are killed every year in Colombia than in all other countries in the world combined--at the hands of the paramilitaries and often with the consent of U.S.-owned corporations.The civil war in Colombia has claimed 40,000 lives over the last decades. It has forced more than 1.5 million people to flee their homes, giving Colombia the third-largest internal refugee population in the world, after Sudan and Afghanistan." But I got our numbers from mediachannelcom which is actually based on others (UN, US state dept. etc...): "Colombia's civil war, now in its 36th year, has a long, complex history. In the last decade, say human rights groups, political violence has claimed about 35,000 lives. Some victims were combatants killed in action, but MOST were civlians or surrendered fighters executed at close range. All parties to the conflict have dismal human rights records, according to Human Rights Watch (HRW), the Colombian Commission of Jurists (CCJ), Amnesty International, the U.N. and even the U.S. State Department." MOST were civilians...if even uncle Sam is ready to admit asmuch, it must be true...ooh fuck.... S...h
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Post by Srrh on Feb 10, 2003 15:41:20 GMT -5
2. The paramilitaries (right wing militias) are just as bad, yes. But, they still have to take their war to the cities, and to my knowledge they have never detonated a car-bomb anywhere. In fact, the paramilitaries have restricted themselves to what they call their "military objectives". These include guerrilla installations, logistic lines, and supporters Indeed. As the editorial from the New York post states "The leftist guerrillas are kidnappers and drug traffickers, but the paramilitaries are responsible for 80 percent of Colombia's stunning levels of political violence. The armed forces have failed to protect villages even when the government received advance warning of a massacre, and in many places there is clear evidence that soldiers helped in the killings. While the civilian government has made some paramilitary arrests and sacked several army officers with strong ties, it is simply too weak to resist the increasingly overt collaboration." Meanwhile, if we look at specific years we know that "in 1997 there were 288 massacres. According to Americas Watch, the toll was: 2,136 killed–600 were women, 132 children. Three thousand people have been "disappeared." On all sides of this conflict, children are doing the fighting: 4,000 of the army's soldiers and 2,000 of the guerrillas and paramilitaries are minors." S...h
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Post by Srrh on Feb 10, 2003 15:46:31 GMT -5
I know we have discussed this before, but I still have to hear how you propose to end the conflict in Colombia I propose nothing. But some Colombians are...and I positively LOVE IT: "(...) shows a single sunflower in full bloom. Creating a frame for this flower are the words: SAN JOSE DE APARTADO–COMMUNIDAD DE PAZ. On the reverse side of the card is a text. It says: "I am a member of the COMMUNIDAD DE PAZ OF SAN JOSE DE APARTADO. Consequently, I am obliged: Not to participate in the war either directly or indirectly Not to carry arms Not to provide information to any of the groups involved in the armed conflict. I am committed to search for a peaceful solution to the conflicts of our country." Maybe naive...as human as it gets, with hopes of peace and of a better tomorow... S..h
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Post by Srrh on Feb 10, 2003 16:09:20 GMT -5
3. Drug cartels with as much military power as the Medellin and Cali cartel do not exist anymore. There are no big-name drug lords like Escobar anymore So I've read. Except: It wasn't as definitive as that. Given what happened to the Medellin and/or Cali cartels, should we say such powerful military org. don't exist anymore, or did they understand that strategically, they could do witout all the publicity? Is it because we don't know his name that there is no more drug lords like Escobar? As soon as one of those organisation is identified, it becomes the obvious (and legitimate) target...aren't they better of being a litlle more secretive? But I heard that too. S..h
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Post by Danny Boy on Feb 10, 2003 16:25:18 GMT -5
All of you who thinkyou have an insight on this subject should read "Unholy Alliance" by David Yallop
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Post by Srrh on Apr 24, 2003 14:17:59 GMT -5
If I were Colombian, I'd be on drugs...just to forget about it all...
From the BBC...
It makes chilling reading, showing even worse figures than last year when Colombia was rated one of the most dangerous nations on Earth.
The murder figures are higher than many countries in the midst of a full-scale war.
The news will not be welcomed by the government of President Alvaro Uribe, elected on the back of a promise to bring law and order to a country entering its 39th year of civil conflict.
But it will be able to say that since he only took over last August he cannot shoulder the blame.
There were over 32,000 homicides last year - 5,500 of them politically motivated and another 5,000 part of "social cleansing operations" usually carried out by right-wing paramilitaries who target drug addicts, prostitutes and homosexuals.
Worked out as murders per 100,000 of the population, Colombia has now touched 30.
As a comparison, the US averages seven per 100,000 and Europe even less.
However, human rights groups indicate this year looks even worse as government offensives against Marxist rebels have simply resulted in yet more violence.
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