Only in Colombia...

[Srrh]

Do you know Adriana Santacruz ? She's a journalist with Cali's El Pais. Not long ago (I don't have the exact date) she wrote something to this effect:

"As far as I know, the rules of the game were previously clearly defined. Their was a social pact in the country: we civilians had to calloborate with the country's legitimate powers. And only the legitimate power could use the justice system or the army as a mean to acheive policy. As a cityzen, it is my job, if i see something suspect, to alert the competent authorities, may it be the police, the army or the national security. It is normal to do so, and I swear I will.
But now, the authorities want us to organize civilians groups to spy, report and fight, and that's a different matter all together. It means I have to take side, I have to become a soldier too and I must loose that neutrality I cherish so much.
If some want to do it: the should. But they should wear uniforms, go to boot camp, do to the front with guns.
Our country can't afford to have an army and a quasi-army, a police and a quasi-police. Or soon we will leave in a quasi state rules by a quasi democracy."

I think she might have a point...

Srrh

[pabs]

hehe I was hoping you wouldn't bring that up...

Here's how I see it. In traditional warfare, both sides are required to wear uniforms, and as long as you wear a uniform, you are a legimate target. Of course, if you don't wear a uniform, then you would not be a target; hence, spies came about. And that's why being a spy is a thankless job: your government will never claim you and you have it worse than regular soldiers because you are a little weasel that tried to outsmart the enemy. Therefore, spies are also legitimate targets.

This plan that Uribe is putting together does not call for everyone to participate. It involves only those who want to take a side, and by definition, it makes them targets for the guerrillas. Now how they fit into the conflict? Well, they are in a supporting role. They are not required to fight, only to report. It's simply another way to gether intelligence. They are not a quasi-army, nor do they need to be. I don't even think they should have weapons UNLESS they are trained for it. Uribe's plan calls for something that resembles the American CIA, but without the guns as of yet.

IMO, it is a good move by the president: it gets the people involved, should they want to get involved and it helps the intelligence types. See, gathering field intelligence is very hard. The guerrillas can smell a rat from a mile away. But peasants can get closer to them and in fact do sometimes. Now one might argue that this would bring the war closer to them, but the fact of the matter is that they are already a part of the conflict and it was the guerrillas who got them involved. This is simply a way for those who do not to side with the guerrillas, to side with the government and its armed forces.

BTW, I am VERY impressed that you even know her or the newspaper she writes for. I read her stuff on occasion, although I prefer El Tiempo.

[Srrh]

And while we're at it, what about this...

One of Colombia's most powerful drug barons, Gilberto Rodriguez Orejuela, is expected to be freed from prison on Thursday, after a judge in the city of Tunja ordered his immediate release.
The ruling represents a blow for the government which was caught by surprise last Friday when another judge ordered the release of Rodriguez Orejuela and his brother Miguel. Together they ran the notorious Cali cocaine cartel.

Cali cartel
Run by the Rodriguez Orejuela brothers
Operated in the 1980s and 1990s
Allegedly responsible for 80% of world's cocaine
Annual profits estimated at $8bn

President Alvaro Uribe halted their release - but late on Wednesday, Judge Luz Angela Moncada overturned his decision, granting Gilberto Rodriguez Orejuela a habeas corpus request.

Extra troops have been deployed around the Combita maximum security jail which Gilberto Rodriguez is expected to leave on Thursday morning local time.

His brother is expected to remain behind bars, after a court handed him a new four-year prison sentence for bribery earlier this week.

Last week a judge ruled that the brothers were eligible for release after serving three-fifths of their sentence with good behaviour.

Miguel Rodriguez Orejuela is expected to remain behind bars

But President Uribe intervened and as well as ordering a high-level inquiry into the matter, demanded that the judge, Pedro Jose Suarez, be investigated.

Interior Minister, Fernando Londono, said he believed the immense financial power of the drug barons had corrupted the justice system, showing it was not up to the task of taking on drugs traffickers.

Correspondents say letting the men go free could seriously affect Colombia's relationship with the US, which has heavily funded the Colombian war against drug production and trafficking.

Maybe Colombia doesn't want to be a US client state (like Israel) anymore. Maybe they want true independance...
Doesn't look like Uribe's plan though....

So Pabs....what says you?

S.....

[pabs]

I've been keeping up with this since last friday when shit hit the fan. It is to me, one of the worst things that could happen in Colombia, and not necessarily because of the US aid.

You see, these idiots served less time than the typical sentence for being a "mule" which in itself makes no sense to me. How can someone who sent god knows how many tons of cocaine to US receive less jail time than someone that gets caught trying to leave the country with a couple kilos? I know they made a deal with the government when they got arrested, but at the very least they should serve the full sentence. And what really pisses me off is that in a recent poll, some people in the street said they thought the Orejuelas should be set free, even before completing their jail terms, because they had probably learned their lesson and they deserved a second chance.

BULLSHIT!!! Those assholes are going to be set free and go right back into business. In fact, there's been reports that they've kept control over the drug trade from jail. How can people be so naive??

As for Colombia not wanting to be a US satellite anymore, that couldn't be farther from the truth Srrh. Let it be known that it is not the whole country setting them free. It is the doing of a single soft judge. It still remains to see how the US reacts to this, but right now Colombia wants and needs the money from the US.

[Srrh]

pabs said:

Those assholes are going to be set free and go right back into business. In fact, there's been reports that they've kept control over the drug trade from jail.

I am pretty sure they have....so at least no free room and board for those people...

I also agree with you on the ridiculous sentence they got...but it is the same everywhere....for every little petty (black) crack dealer arrested in the US, how many white-drug-baron-plane-owner-millionaire get caught?
I bet you the ratio is not even 100 to 1

Fucked up world....

S....

[pabs]

I agree, but what's even more shocking is the fact that they didn't even do their full terms. They were released after doing 3/5 of their sentence...

People like them MUST do their full sentence...bastard softie judge.

[pabs]

Ok, now this time I am kind of bothered at the US.

About 4 years ago, Colombia Air Force war planes were chasing guerrillas near the town of Santo Domingo. 17 civilians died during the attack. At the time, the Colombian Air Force said the civilians died as a result of a car-bomb left there by the guerrillas. But now after an investigation by the FBI (what the hell is the FBI doing in Colombia investigating an internal incident??), the Americans are saying that the 17 civilians died as a result of a bomb (maybe more) that went astray and killed them. The US is now trying to block a large amount of money tat was to be used by the Colombian Air Force on the basis of human right violations. Furthermore, Sen Patrick Leahy (D) has written a memo saying that we'll never know if this was an accident or a deliberate attack on the civilian population.

Ok now here's what upsets me: For starters, what kind of jurisdiction does the FBI have in Colombia? Second, there is no evidence that the pilots deliberately attacked civilians. Besides, this is utterly absurd. Colombian Air Force officers would never do such a thing. There have been other instances when civilians have died in bombing raids against the FARC but never has an attack been directed at the civilian population. It is their duty to defend them and I deeply believe that they live up to their duty. Besides, killing civilians serves no purpose in war so how can one even suggest that it was a deliberate attack. Third, how can the US suggest that this was a deliberate attack when the US itself has killed numerous civilians and even some Canadian soldiers in Afghanistan alone?? It seems to be that the US should be the first ones to know that accidents like this are bound to happen in war. What makes this a human rights violations as opposed to the mistakes the US has had? Fourth, according to the US embassy, the targets were painted by three American civilians on the ground at the time. So who were they and what were they doing? Moreover, there was a video of the incident that the American Embassy has "lost". This video apparently could clarify a lot of the issues surrounding the bombing but it cannot be found now. So even though it appears that three American civilians were the ones that actually pointed at the targets, somehow the Colombians are the ones who are going to take all the heat.

This is a double standard if I've ever seen one!!

[Srrhisparanoid]

Pabs,
Do youi ever get the feeling we're alone in this thread ?

;D
S....

[pabs]

LOL!! I know!!

Well some people read it every once in a while, but it's not a topic that many people can relate to. I actually appreciate very much the interest you have taken in Colombian politics.

[NorthCoast]

My two good friends,

I found this thread tonight, and agree to read and learn more. And I must admit that I'm not capable to comment at my current intelligence level.

Srrhisparanoid, be ashamed.
Senna would have driven into the corner at full song, and dealt with the situation when, and if, it presented itself.

Good night to just the two of you,

NC

[Henrik]

Hey Pabs,

I always read this thread if there is something new, primarily due to the fact that the issue really interests me but I get no news coverage of Colombia at all in Europe.

Sorry I can't add much to it though, but as I said, I really don't get any news about the situation.

Funny when you think about it, Swiss banks should perhaps be a bit more interested in what is going on there..no?

[Srrh]

pabs said:

Ok now here's what upsets me: For starters, what kind of jurisdiction does the FBI have in Colombia?

Well, it's their training, their cash and for all related purposes, their war on drugs. When Columbia embarked in the US lead drug crusade, and that it used it to oust some left wing guerrila (mainly the FARC), it seems to me that some of its sovereignty was left at the door.
This might be brutal but....isn't it how client states function? At the will of their respective patrons?

S....

[Srrh]

adding fuel to the fire....from the bbcnews world service:

The US has reaffirmed support for Colombia's efforts to halt illegal drugs production and its civil war, but has given a warning on human rights abuses.

The remarks came from Secretary of State Colin Powell, who arrived in the capital Bogota on Tuesday for talks with the country's new President Alvaro Uribe.

He came to power in August pledging to take a hard line against leftist guerrillas, and to suffocate the coca production revenues they rely on.

However human rights groups have criticised tough new measures he has brought in, including curfews, restrictions on movement and search and arrest rights.


Increased US aid to Colombia includes 72 new helicopters

"There will be a big expectation that, as the Colombian armed forces and the Colombian police are strengthened to deal with this problem, there can be no tolerance for abuse of human rights of the kind that has been seen in the past," Mr Powell said.

He said it remained to be seen whether the right-wing paramilitary group the AUC - which is accused by some of the worst abuses - would renounce its "extralegal, unconstitutional actions".

Do you guys actually get to vote in American elections yet?

Sorry Pabs, it's not really funny, but the irony of it all....

S....

[Srrh]

As I was visiting the UN site, I found this
T
he Special Representative visited Colombia from 30 May to 6 June 1999 to assess first-hand the impact of the conflict on children.

During his visit the Special Representative met with Government and Armed Forces officials, the spokesman for the largest guerrilla movement, the Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia (FARC), and he held discussions with the United Nations country team, international and local non-governmental organizations, the Catholic Church, the business community, the diplomatic community, representatives of ICRC and civil society leaders.

For over 40 years, Colombian children have suffered as victims, witnesses and perpetrators of violence. Large numbers of children participate as child soldiers in armed groups and forces. Children comprise the majority of the 1.2 million persons who have been forcibly displaced within Colombia over the past 10 years. Displaced communities lack access to basic rights and services such as schooling, health, water and sanitary living conditions. Colombia's chronic violence has given rise to alarming rates of child prostitution, gang warfare, domestic violence, child abuse and increasing numbers of street children who are often victims of "social cleansing'. This culture of violence has produced a widespread sense of fear, impunity and resignation within Colombian society.

I wish S.Bolivar had acheived his dream...chances are, today Colombia would be a large peacful country with very litlle outside political intervention....or maybe not, I dunno, I am babling....

S....

[pabs]

Yeah Srrh, that is the situation indeed. The FARC actually recruit a large amount of children to do their fighting. Someone I know in the Army was telling me that after the fighting is done, they have to go document what happened which includes searching for bodies and stuff, and it is at that point that they realize they were shooting at children. What's worse is that there's nothing else they can do: they don't know who's attacking them so they have to fight back and at the end it turns out that it was some 14 year old with an AK-47. I can't begin to imagine the kind of moral conflict that must go on inside the soldiers that have to do all the fighting because of all those f*cking guerrillas.

I really wish this conflict were over It has dragged long enough