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Post by daSilva on Jan 24, 2003 12:08:29 GMT -5
Hey Pabs,
Look at it another way. If drugs were legal think of how prosperous Colombia would be.
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Post by pabs on Jan 24, 2003 12:11:11 GMT -5
Prices would go down though...there's no guarantee either way. Besides, I refuse to think my friends' lives were given up in vain.
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Post by daSilva on Jan 24, 2003 12:16:55 GMT -5
Indeed.
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Post by Srrh on Jan 24, 2003 13:35:51 GMT -5
Besides, I refuse to think my friends' lives were given up in vain. I refuse the fact that religious assholes have a legal say in the "ethics" of countries where I live. But they still do. Sadly, all the wishful thinking in the world will not change the fact that anyone who died during the so called "war on drugs" died for...nothing. No reason. Just to please a couple of right wing self righteous reactionary illuminattis who decide for the rest of the world "what's good for them"... The same assholes who snort their lives away (before running for potus and deciding that when THEY did it it was ok, and it was so long ago blablabla...) BTW, the same assholes who destroy Coca (and kill the innocent civilians (poor, thus sub-human) living there, who cares, it's called colateral damage....) plantation in Columbia are the same sons of bitches who a decade ago deregulated the price of coffee in the name of "the free market". Well, today you can't live by producing Arabica in SA (the robusta in Vietnam is killing it) so if you want your kids to eat, you produce Coca. For which you risk getting killed... Oh but I forgot, what right do those kidds have to eat...fucking peons don't even have the dignity to starve with there mouth shut... Poor people should go to jail. All of them. Fucking pests... BTW Interesting stat about Afghanistan: since the US invasion the production of Opium rose by 1200%. So if history teaches us anything, we'd have to imagine that when columbia will be 100% US (it's what ? 90% now?), it'll then be the snow capital of the world, transforming all it's man into dealers and women into prostitutes...a bit like cuba 30 years ago where you could actually report woman who refused sexual favors to the police under boggus pretences...AND THEY WOULD ACT UPON IT... Client States, drugs, higher class greed and under developpment...: the four leggs of the throne of imperialist domination. All those who collaborate in raping their own people should get their head shaved when liberation comes. And have no doubt about it: it's coming... S...h
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Post by Srrh on Jan 24, 2003 13:43:22 GMT -5
FYI: The official price of a pound of Coffee in 1977: 6 $. In 2001? .42 $ Today 25 million coffee producers are starving to death...The wrodl bank is calling it "the silent Mitch" ...Why? because in 1989 the US and the world bank left the ICO saying it's "artificial price fixing wasn't in the best interest of the market..." Fuck'em...let 25 million people in develop countries die of overdose...let's call it "collateral damage"...
PS I re-read my above post and I appologize: poor and under-educated people shouldn't be jailed. It's cost to much. They should be killed for having the audacity to try to survive.
S...h
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Post by Wycco on Jan 24, 2003 14:09:36 GMT -5
Pabs...
If drugs were legalised in the US- they could then be grown in the US- thus why pay to have the stuff imported when you can get it cheaper here at home?
Even if the drugs were legal but importing them were not... I doubt consumers could tell the difference between the Colombian stuff and the American stuff...
Thus there would be less demand on Colombian drugs- the drug lords would have less money, and as a result, less power.
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Post by Srrh on Jan 24, 2003 14:31:01 GMT -5
Talking about utopia....
"If there's a sense that all this amounts to a victory in the war on cocaine it is by tempered by reality.
It's said that there are between 500 and 800 major cocaine labs across Colombia. And for every big lab there may be 50 or more smaller coca labs like the one we saw. At best the numbers are rough estimates. But do the math. It's staggering.
Despite the aerial fumigation and missions like the one I witnessed, coca production actually increased in Colombia last year. The problem is so big that they'd need a lot more Jungla Comandos to make a real difference.
As for the campesinos there is no doubt they will rebuild. By the time their fumigated crops bloom again three or four months from now, they'll be ready with a new lab."
BTW: WTF...I keep on spelling it Columbia...maybe in my head it's already a us district....lol
S..h
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Post by pabs on Jan 24, 2003 15:42:00 GMT -5
While I agree that the victims of this whole thing are the campesinos, I don't blame the US for it. Rather, I think it is the druglords' fault.
You see, regardless of who makes the laws, we still have them and they still say that drugs are illegal. So if they want to make a living out of selling marijuana, cocaine, or heroine, they better find a way to legalize it. This is not about who makes the laws, nor is it about poor joe blow in the street who's looking for a high for $1/kg. This is about the fact that there are people making money illegally and that affects everyone, including you and me.
Also, druglords don't give a rat's ass about the people or about anybody else. All they care about is making money at the expense of everyone else: campesinos, soldiers and law enforcement agents, and last but not least, consumers. The coffee example is informative in the sense that it makes you realize why peasants in Colombia switched their crops to coca. But it doesn't change the fact that they did it only because druglords made it a profitable business for them and now they are dead-smack in the middle of a war of power. I do feel sorry for them because it really wasn't the government that screwed them but the druglords and their false promises.
Besides, I don't see why good soldiers have to die simply because lesser people than them (the druglords) couldn't find a decent way to make a living. In my eyes, devoting your life to the service of your country and its people is one of the most noble acts a person can do, while the opposite is true for criminals.
Finally, I can understand something like marijuana being legalized (althogh I would never smoke it). But cocaine, heroine are justifiably illegal and should remain so.
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Post by BrainFade on Jan 26, 2003 10:00:14 GMT -5
Good thread guys. It's great to seen an open, honest and friendly debate on a controversial subject that doesn't degenerate into two sides just pissing each other off. But I guess that's just Shamu Croaks for you - a good forum ;D
Anyway, Wycco - you were right, I did mean EASIER. Also, I think I need to add a disclaimer here: while I believe in the legalisation of most drugs, I don't necessarily think that all drugs are ok. Personally, I've seen a lot of my friends/acquaintances go down to heroine and cocaine, hell even LSD has made a couple of people I know turn a bit *interesting*. While I only indulge in cannabis and alcohol, I nevertheless think people should be given the right to choose whether or not they damage their own bodies by taking drugs.
Further, I believe it's important for people on both sides of the debate to avoid oversimplifying a VERY complex and tricky situation. There are good things and bad things that will arise out of either situation (criminalisation/decriminalisation), the question is: Which situation stands to benefit the most people/harm the fewest?
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Post by smokingun on Jan 26, 2003 23:39:42 GMT -5
Then again, strictly from a personal level, they can legalize the lot of it. It will not bring me to begin consuming any of it, as I really have no interest in doing so. while i can share that sentiment, i think it is wrong to legalise something that can be so addictive as to cause an addict to commit a crime either against me or someone i know just to support his/her habit.
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Post by daSilva on Jan 27, 2003 0:01:13 GMT -5
Addiction should be treated as a disease and not a crime. It's kind of hypocritical that our governments choose to run lotterys but fight a war on drugs.
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Post by smokingun on Jan 27, 2003 0:27:31 GMT -5
yes it is a disease and IMO it is treated as such. but does that justify legalising what causes it and in turn pushes an individual to commit a crime? and what about the innocent people affected by the crime? who is responsible? the junkie? the govt for legalizing the stuff? the advocates who called for the stuff to be legalised?? or perhaps the victim who was plain stupid to be at the wrong place at the wrong time?
i think drugs that are highly addictive should be as difficult to obtain as possible. legalising them would be opening of yet another pandoras box.
i couldn't care less about soft drugs, on the other hand. legalise it if you must and like the warning on cigarette packets but a warning like "continued use of this stuff makes you stupid". that is what smoking pot does anyway in the long term.
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Post by daSilva on Jan 27, 2003 3:32:48 GMT -5
Obviously SG you have never known somebody addicted to a substance...........they are not criminals and should not be treated as such.
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Post by Henrik on Jan 27, 2003 3:57:40 GMT -5
while i can share that sentiment, i think it is wrong to legalise something that can be so addictive as to cause an addict to commit a crime either against me or someone i know just to support his/her habit. SG, this does also apply to alcohol, yet consuming alcohol is permitted in most countries. Having known both alcoholics and drug addicts, all I can say is that in the end there is not that much of a difference between the two. Both are extremely destructive, and should really be treated as a sickness. I guess what I am really wondering is if legalizing drugs will increase the number of consumers. I'm not sure that to be the case. The people who today wish to consume illegal drugs do not have a problem in obtaining them, and so rendering them illegal does not stop the consumption. It is the same for alcohol, which is why I mentioned the prohibition earlier. As another example, while I lived in Saudi Arabia, a country where alcohol is illegal and can't be sold, I saw more stocks of whiskey, gin, vodka and home-made alcohol than I have seen anywhere else. Goes to show how effective the ban is! There will always be people who will want to consume, but by making drugs legal, as is alcohol, one could possibly erradicate all the crime that currently surrounds all drug trafficking, and obtain a tax income that could be used to help addicts.
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Post by Danny Boy on Jan 27, 2003 4:20:04 GMT -5
SG it is because drugs are illegal that they are so expensive, this is why there is so much drug related crime. Say you can buy a kilo of heroin in Thailand for about $1000 the street value of that same heroin in London is worth around $1,000,000 by the time it has been cut. That is why we have a massive drug problem; that is why people are actively trying to get other people on to drugs. Make drugs cheaper and freely available and there is no need for the drug smugglers. It is not a perfect solution but then again we do not live in a perfect world.
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