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Post by rick1776 on Jul 30, 2003 1:37:22 GMT -5
The only biblical doctrine I received was when I was in primary school. So I didnt question the fact too closely at the time. But now that I think of it, didnt Adam and Eve only have two sons, Cane and Able. If so doesnt it cast doubt on the whole propergation of the species concept?
If anyone is in the know please throw me a lifeline, I need help on this one.
cheers rick1776
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Post by daSilva on Jul 30, 2003 7:24:48 GMT -5
Although the Bible speaks mainly of Adam and Eve and of their family, do not forget that there were others. For example Lilith was thrown out of the Garden of Eden, but she existed within the story.
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Post by BrainFade on Jul 30, 2003 12:43:58 GMT -5
Oh damn, Da Silva, you've ruined my fantasy. Ever since I can remember I've perved over the thought of Cain and Abel getting it on with Eve...
Wait, what am I saying? I didn't mean that, seriously. Really guys, I didn't mean it. Guys....
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Post by rick1776 on Jul 30, 2003 19:19:22 GMT -5
Ok so who was Lilith? Daughter of Adam and eve? A seperate female created for Cane or Able? Fill in the details please, Im interested in filling in the gaps. Otherwise its back to Darwin for me.
cheers rick1776
Scary stuff but at the moment it would seem that we are more inbred than a couple of cousins from alabama.
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Post by Danny Boy on Jul 30, 2003 22:14:14 GMT -5
Scary stuff but at the moment it would seem that we are more inbred than a couple of cousins from alabama. Hey! don't lump me in with that lot, the Old Testament is total bollocks, just as Greek/Norse/Roman mythology was. I am descended from bacteria and proud of it.
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Post by glendo on Jul 31, 2003 0:56:57 GMT -5
im with rick and dannyboy on this one..... my ancestry is slime... rather than a mythological created story..
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Post by daSilva on Jul 31, 2003 1:50:50 GMT -5
Lilith was created before Eve!
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Post by Henrik on Jul 31, 2003 4:54:31 GMT -5
Now I am no scholar of the bible, but have nevertheless studied it in some distant time when I was young. I have absolutely no recolection of a Lilith ever being mentioned, and so this discussion got me curious.
So, after checking around on the web a bit, I have come up with some information.
And here is another one:
So is this Lilith then a Hebrew legend? There is a lot more stuff out on the web also about a "Night Monster" which seems to be this Lilith person.
Nevertheless, from what I can gather based on the information I have found, Lilith does not exist in the bible, and so BrainFade, I would say your fanatsy is still safe!
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Post by Henrik on Jul 31, 2003 5:02:00 GMT -5
And here is some more: "coupling with fallen angels near the Red Sea and bearing more demonic children"...sounds more like a Clive Barker novel to me!
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Post by rick1776 on Jul 31, 2003 6:53:13 GMT -5
Ok I know my search is not very thorough but it will do for now. Lilith is a no go solution. It would appear that she was made up. Quote below:
"Looking for Lilith[1] The feminist critique of conventional values has not overlooked the Jewish tradition. Whether or not one acknowledges the validity of all the charges that have been leveled against the treatment of women in Jewish law and theology, it is hardly possible to ignore these issues. As one who is normally sympathetic with feminist aspirations, I have often been disappointed with the scholarly standards of the debate, especially when it has been directed towards the classical texts of Judaism. In the course of polemical ideological exchanges, I find too frequently that sweeping generalizations are being supported by flimsy or questionable evidence, with a disturbing disregard for factual accuracy and historical context.
As an example of this sort of scholarly sloppiness, I wish to discuss an intriguing Hebrew legend that has found its way into dozens of recent works about Jewish attitudes towards women.
The legend in question was inspired by the Bible's dual accounts of the creation of the first woman, which led its author to the conclusion that Adam had a first wife before his marriage to Eve. Adam's original mate was the demonic Lilith who had been fashioned, just like her male counterpart, from the dust of the earth. Lilith insisted from the outset on equal treatment, a fact which caused constant friction between the couple. Eventually the frustrated Lilith used her magical powers to fly away from her spouse. At Adam's urging, God dispatched three angels to negotiate her return. When these angels made threats against Lilith's demonic descendants, she countered that she would prey eternally upon newborn human babies, who could be saved only by invoking the protection of the three angels. In the end Lilith stood her ground and never returned to her husband.
The story implies that when Eve was afterwards fashioned out of Adam's rib (symbolic of her subjection to him), this was to serve as an antidote to Lilith's short-lived attempt at egalitarianism. Here, declare the feminists matronizingly, we have a clear statement of the Rabbinic Attitude Towards Women!
There is only one slight problem with this theory: The story of Lilith is not actually found in any authentic Rabbinic tradition. Although it is repeatedly cited as a "Rabbinic legend" or a "midrash," it is not recorded in any ancient Jewish text! The tale of Lilith originates in a medieval work called "the Alphabet of Ben-Sira," a work whose relationship to the conventional streams of Judaism is, to say the least, problematic.
The unknown author of this work has filled it with many elements that seem designed to upset the sensibilities of traditional Jews. In particular, the heroes of the Bible and Talmud are frequently portrayed in the most perverse colours. Thus, the book's protagonist, Ben-Sira, is said to have issued from an incestuous union between the prophet Jeremiah and his daughter. Joshua is described as a buffoon too fat to ride a horse. King David comes across as a heartless and spiteful figure who secretly delights in the death of his son Absalom, while putting on a disingenuous public display of grief. The book is consistently sounding the praises of hypocritical and insincere behaviour.
So shocking and abhorrent are some of the contents of "the Alphabet of Ben-Sira" that modern scholars have been at a loss to explain why anyone would have written such a book. Some see it as an impious digest of risqué folk-tales. Others have suggested that it was a polemical broadside aimed at Christians, Karaites, or some other opposing movement. I personally would not rule out the possibility that it was actually an anti-Jewish satire--though, to be sure, it did come to be accepted by the Jewish mystics of medieval Germany; and amulets to fend off the vengeful Lilith became an essential protection for newborn infants in many Jewish communities.
Eventually the tale of Lilith was included in a popular English-language compendium of Rabbinic legend, and some uncritical readers--unable or unwilling to check after the editor's sources--cited it as a representative Rabbinic statement on the topic. As tends to happen in such instances, subsequent authors kept copying from one another until the original error turned into an unchallenged historical fact.
Certainly there are volumes of real texts and traditions that could benefit from a searching and critical feminist analysis, and it is a shame to focus so much intellectual energy on a dubious and uncharacteristic legend of this sort. "
So the search continues. Someone had better come up with a woman being born of eve, otherwise we may all be decendants of a couple of gay guys. Now isnt that ironic considering the christians view on gay people.
cheers rick1776
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Post by Henrik on Jul 31, 2003 7:59:54 GMT -5
Interesting theories there Rick, and they remind me of something that is perhaps closer to my origins.
Very little is in fact known about the Viking religious beliefs. Sure, there is the broad knowledge of the various gods they believed in, and also the on going fight between their gods and the giants. Some of these stories have trickled down to us, but it is all very sketchy as a result of Christianism. What actually happened back in those days is that in its attempt to rid the world of the "silly" beliefs of the Vikings, the Christians actually destroyed much of what existed that actually documented those beliefs. Worst, they also created several fictional stories that were "planted", in an attempt to ridicule the Viking religious beliefs. As such, some accounts that still exist today are probably made up stories planted by Christians.
So, perhaps the "Alphabet of Ben-Sira" is a similar work of fiction, created in an attempt to discredit the Jewish religion.
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Post by Wycco on Jul 31, 2003 8:00:08 GMT -5
Interesting- I've never heard of Lilith before, my wife is the budding bible scholar- I'll have to ask her what she knows of her.
I will point out though- that because the bible doesn't mention Adam and Eve having daughters doesn't mean that the Hebrews believed they didn't. Strong tradition is that women counted for zip- only the sons counted. Thus daughters would not need mentioning in the bible.
Eve is only mentioned because she is a special case- made from Adam's rib- and of course she ate the citrus fruit.
(the origional text uses a word meaning "unspecified citrus fruit" not "an apple"- thus it could have been an Orange/Lemon/Lime/Grapefruit but certainly not an apple.) .
Otherwise the genesis might read- in the beginning God create Adam from dust- he ate an orange- got kicked out of a nice garden- had two sons...yada yada yada
etc...etc...
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Post by rick1776 on Jul 31, 2003 8:15:38 GMT -5
Ok Im on a crusade. In search of the truth. Try the following site www.answersingenesis.org/Now here is the TRUTH. LOL "Cain was the first child of Adam and Eve recorded in Scripture (Genesis 4:1). His brothers, Abel (Genesis 4:2) and Seth (Genesis 4:25), were part of the first generation of children ever born on this Earth. Even though only these three males are mentioned by name, Adam and Eve had other children. In Genesis 5:4 a statement sums up the life of Adam and Eve—‘And the days of Adam after he had fathered Seth were eight hundred years. And he fathered sons and daughters.’ This does not say when they were born. Many could have been born in the 130 years (Genesis 5:3) before Seth was born." OK problem solved. Adam had many sons and daughters so it would seem. Now here is the really sick part. There is no reason to believe that Adam only knew Eve? When did Eve bite the bullet? So if Adam was to be fruitful and multiple its not too much of a stretch to believe that he may have known his daughters. Also, without contradicting the bible when cain went east of eden and knew his wife and they had enoch, that sick puppy was knowing one of his sisters. Now come on!!! So why was this acceptable until the time of Moses? All of a sudden God comes to the realisation that this is not a good thing and tells Moses that incest is a no-go. Also and this one gets me. The bible is full of important events, as it should be. So Cain is an important event, first born child always is. So is Abel, for he gets killed by Cain. Now 130 years pass and then Seth is mentioned. For shits sake, do you not think that the birth of the first female should be an important event?? I mean think about it. The first born female is not considered an important event?? I mean why not. I mean we are looking at the extinction of the human race at this point in time and the birth of the first female is not considered important enough to mention? Cain takes a wife, the second marrage or so it would seem, and his wife, which is also his sister, doesnt even get a name? I mean come on. cheers rick1776
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Post by Senninha on Jul 31, 2003 8:25:29 GMT -5
Just goes to show Rick, how unimportant women are... Actually, i know my dad has a book at home which is about the "7 daughters of Eve" or soemthing - I never read it, but it looks interesting - I think my sis bought him it for his birthday or something. Whatever, the gist of it is that apparently, we can all be traced back to these 7 women, and we all descend from them. Whether or not these were daughters of Eve I dunno - like I said I never read it - but it's a pretty new book, and I'm wondering if anyone has either read it, or found info based on the same theory soemwhere on the www.
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Post by Wycco on Jul 31, 2003 8:52:17 GMT -5
Carefull using the word "Know" in a biblical discussion Sen. - some people might not "know" which "know" you're talking about- ya "Know". - someone like myself might take it completely out of context!!!! While we're on the subject- stay clear of the word "feet" too!!!!!! (feet = old testament slang for genitals... slang only applies to old testament- when the woman anointed Jesus' feet in the new testament- nothing kinky was going on.) Whatever, the gist of it is that apparently, we can all be traced back to these 7 women, and we all descend from them. This would tend to agree with mitrochondrial DNA (passed only from the mother). Evolutionists, and biologists say they can trace the ancestors of all homo-sapiens to one troop of heidelburg man consisting of between 10 and 20 individuals. Thus, being descending from about 7 women makes sense as a realistic number. Although mankind likes to seperate itself into "races" and other artifical boundaries- humans are genetically a lot less diverse than most multicellular organisms... In other words- yup we're definately all closely related- humans haven't been around on the planet very long. (relatively speaking)
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