Why do religious people think God is stupid?

[rick1776]

When you listen to fundimentalists talk about God you really have to ask yourself, why would God be so stupid?

Now if He/She exists, I personally believe that He/She would not be stupid at all. Far from it in fact.

If God is all knowing why would He create a system where he knew 90% of people would be doomed to failure. It seems to be a ridiculous concept. Perhaps theres a housing crisis up there? Dont really know.

I often have door stop debates with those poeple that ride their bikes around (modern day crusades) and knock on my door on a Saturday morning. It goes like this:

So if you do not believe in God, you will go to hell.

Yes

What if you lived in darkest Africa or the Amazon basin and had never heard of God. Would you still go to hell? That would seem unfair to me? What if you were a little child that died at birth or something like that?

Well, no, it is not your fault that you have not heard the word of God. You of course will be saved. Our God is a kind understanding God.

So dear bible carrier on the bicycle, Im telling you right now, that up until this very moment, I had never heard of God and was going about my life treating others as I would like to be treated (some irony in that last bit). So up until just a few moments ago I was on track to being saved and would have gone to heaven without a lot of effort and fuss. Now having told me about Him, Ive now got to follow a bunch of rules and put in a big effort and donate a sizable slice of my salary so be saved. Is that correct? Thank you so very *ucken much.

Slam door in face.

Seriously though, why do fundimentalists think all people that do not follow their religion will burn in hell? Their reply, because the bible says so. The bible also says that it is not for others to judge, for that will happen on judgement day.

Im putting my money on God not being stupid and will let him decide if Ive been a moron or not.

cheers
rick1776

[worthless]

My thoughts.....

"I do not feel obliged to believe that same God who endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect had intended for us to forgo their use."
-Galileo Galilei

"God, please save me from your followers!" - Bumper Sticker

"Doubt everything. Find your own light."-Last words of Gotama Buddha, in Theravada tradition

[rick1776]

Worthless,

Too damn good!! Ive been putting in quotes at the beginning of each of my PhD thesis chapters. The one by Galileo goes into chapter 6. Too damn good. We have two fundimentalists in our lab, and whilst they are nice guys, the application of logic goes out the window at the mention of religion.

I was going to use the following by Albert Einstein, it will have to go into chapter 7 as I still like it a lot.

"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity and I'm not sure about the former."
- Albert Einstein

cheers
rick1776

[worthless]

LOL- ;D

I'm glad I could help, rick. I have had similar experiences with 'ultra-fundamentals'. Usually very very nice people, but sometimes refuse to look at someone elses point of view. Oh well, to 'each his own' I guess.

I love that quote from Einstein. I think I'll add it to my collection.

It reminded me of this......

"There is more stupidity than hydrogen in the universe, and it has a longer shelf life." - Frank Zappa

[pabs]

I consider myself to be a believer, which is to say I believe in God. I'm Catholic mainly because of my family tradition but I have many problems with the Catholic Church is is the only reason why I haven't been confirmed yet. So anyways, here are my thoughts: I also believe, Rick, like you do, that one should treat others as one wants to be treated. If you look at the 10 Commandments, you will find that, in even in the light of logic and morality, they are good guidelines to follow in your life. I try to be a good person and that works for me.

The big difference, however, I think is whether you believe in the existence of a superior being (let's call him God) that is all-knowing, all-powerful, and who is esentially a good God. I do. I think there must be "something" or "someone" out there who started this whole thing.

Now we come to the question about whether you'll burn in hell because you do not believe. Well, I really have no answer to that one. I believe that if such a being exists, then He/She must have a superior intellect to my own so I don't expect to understand him (and I don't try to do so). Religious practice, at least as I see it, is the result of centuries of human interpretation of something that was given to us by this higher being. By definition, that interpretation is bound to be flawed at some level. So I know the Bible says the only way to get to the Father is through the Son. I take that to be a fact, BUT I really don't know (and very much doubt) that's the only way to get to the Father. This means that a native tribe in the Amazon will not necessarily burn in hell simply because they never heard of Jesus. This is how I reconcile these concepts. However, the Bible also says that many will be called but few will be chosen. In my eyes, this means that many will hear about God but few will choose to believe in Him or follow his rules.

In the end, I think everyone should simply aim to be fundamentally good. Now whether you believe in God, Jesus, or whatever you want to call this superior being that is up to each individual. I have chosen to believe.

Also, I'd like to make it clear that I'm not a Bible-beater. I don't even read the Bible very often so I don't want people to think that I'm preaching here because I'm not. I simply wanted to expose my views on this issue.

[Henrik]

I hear you Pabs, and I'm fine with whatever makes you the way you are. I find that there are not enough good people like you around in the world.

One little comment though. You say you have chosen to believe. I would think this is not something you choose. It seems to me that either you believe or you don't. I don't...

[pabs]

I agree with that notion up to a certain extent, Henrik. In my case, as with most people, I was heavily influenced by the environment in which I grew up. My parents instilled in me very strong convictions when it comes to religion. So in that respect, it wasn't so much of a choice. However, as I grew older and started questioning everything, I decided that I wanted to believe. Also, there are many cases of people who didn't believe in God for a very long time, but then started believing for whatever reason. For those people, believing in God was definitely a personal choice. The same can be said for lots of people who decided later on in life that they really didn't believe. That's why I see it as a personal choice.

I never question people's choices in matters of faith. But I choose my friends very carefully, and one of the things that I look for in the people around me is that they are fundamentally good people. I've found tons of that here in SC, which leads me to conclude that religion isn't completely necessary in a person's life. Which again seems to indicate that believing or not is a personal choice.

I don't usually talk a lot about religion because I am certainly not a scholar of the Bible or of Christianity. For me, it is more of a personal matter. But since we're talking about it, I thought I'd share my views with you guys.

[DeadCat]

Cheers to you all!!!

I personally don’t think it matters either way…

Why should the existence or non-existence of a so-labelled “God” effect the way I choose to navigate through life?

As for some background information, I attended both a private Catholic primary school and a private Catholic high school. Part of my education throughout this was religious and we even had a campus priest and some nuns as teachers at high school (years 12 – 18). I attended (not always voluntary) church every Sunday along with the special masses; I went through my confirmation at the age of 13 and was even assigned a 4th name. Ever since my first day at school (and probably before) we had hours of weekly religious education.

After I was no longer pressured/forced to attended masses I no longer did so.

Do I believe in God? Why should it matter? Do I attend church? Why should that matter?

As far as I am concerned, if God existed he would not judge us either way on whether or not we choose to worship him. (Look at the paedophile priest, I’m sure if there was a judgement day God couldn’t give two hoots about all the worshiping he did)

I just believe in acting on what I believe is right.

We were made to read the bible at school, I have also read the Buddhist bible on my own accord, and as far I’m concerned each has its good and bad points…

I think I’ll just continue doing what I’ve been doing.

BTW, I think the last Catholic Church I entered would’ve been about 10 years ago for a brother’s wedding and I felt uncomfortable, the last Buddhist temple I entered was in Feb this year (in up country Thailand of course) and I felt great….

[Ruby2]

I think its definitely an individual thing.

LOL I was about 9 when I asked my mother why Dinosaurs weren't mentioned in the bible, so even then I had my doubts! (my mum said 'oooh, look at the time!' and evaded it completely, lol )

I sat on the fence for years, maybe scared of saying I didn't believe, for fear of being wrong!

I now know that I do not believe in God, and cannot put my faith in a book which could after all just be the first best-seller ever written!

However, I totally agree with Pabs - There are things I try to abide by in life, a moral code if you will, and thats something that all of us probably do, whether we believe in god or not.

At the end of the day, I have no problems at all with people who do believe in God, live and let live I say.

(well, except for those awful phone-lines to God, obviously!)

[rick1776]

Dont get me wrong, I used to be an altarboy in my young days. Nothing like a good catholic nun to beat the fear of God into you. Looking back now I think it instilled a set of values in me, which I live by. (Parents input cannot be underestinmated as well.)

This one has always bothered me: If the world was flooded for 40 days and 40 nights then the fresh water would ahve turned into brine and the salt water would have turned into brine. How could fresh water fish have survived, or conversely how could salt water ish have survived? Man that Ark must have been bigger than the Queen Mary. LOL

There was a recent story on TV here in Oz about a Paedophile chuch leader. (the mob that goes around with the watchtower magazine, cant remember their name). This person had been molesting both boys and girls for years in his bible classes.

The young male (now early 20s) could no longer take the pain any more when he found out that his younger brother was also being molested now and blew the whistle on this guy. They were cast out of the church for having sided with the devil (that is the two boys). The paedofile was convicted and sentenced. He recieved legal aid from the church and was absolved of all wrong doing. You see he was repentant, so all was fine. The two persons that blew the whistle well, they'll burn in hell apparently for they have sided with the devil in exposing this low life.

I wanted to reach into the TV and just have two minutes with this guy. There was also the top church leader. His position on the matter made me ill. For him I would have needed 5 minutes to do a really good cleansing job.

What I was seeing was beyond comprehension. Initially the two boys and a girl that was also involved went to this church leader to report this paedofile. His advice was that they should pray more, for the devil had obviously taken over their bodies. What about the *ucken paedofile, you dumb shit.

Words fail me. Having children of my own, shit like this scares me. Just give me 5 minutes with them Lord, thats all Im asking for. Just 5 minutes.

cheers
rick1776

[worthless]

Pabs, I want to commend you on your posts.

Although we may not have the exact same beliefs, you make good points.

As long as we're sharing....
My story is that I was born and raised Catholic. Spent 12 years in Jesuit schooling and have been confirmed in the Church.

My beliefs are ever evolving. I believe, like you Pabs, that there is "something" that is running the show. But what, I have no clue. I believe in the historical Christ, the historical Muhammad, and the historical Buddha (meaning I believe that they existed), however, in my adulthood I have struggled with their 'diety.' I simply cannot believe in the some of the drivel that I was force-fed as a child. I refuse to follow. I would much rather learn, investigate and exerience on my own.

I think if you study every major religion that once you get past the 'rules and regulations', the philosophies are very similar. Every single one of them show a "reward" for being a moral, respectful person. (now what is and is not 'moral' is a whole other thread).

Personally, I believe that there is some deity that we, as humans, simply cannot understand. It is higher than us and perhaps we will never understand it.

I will be honest and say that I have recently grown to recent organized religions as a whole. Please don't misunderstand that as a shot at people who believe in a certain faith(s), but the organizations as a whole. It seems that their purpose is for "joining the young." Purity withers and dies. They are more concerned about growing their populations, gathering their income, and converting evil non-believers. If they were to take all that focus and work on helping the homeless - then maybe the word would be a better place.

Who knows?

This a conversation that has taken place for centuries. Why stop now?

[eso]

I'll have to throw my 2 cents on this one.

Here in the US fundamantalists are so misguided it makes me ill.

Several years back while going through a very low time in my life I spent a great deal of time doing a pretty thorough comparative religious study of my own accord. I read the bible cover to cover in 3 different tranlations, the Cabala, Tibetan book of the dead, teachings of Lao Tse, the Tao te i ching, the Qran, and several other peripheral texts.

I'm fairly certain that a man named Jesus of Nazareth walked the Earth about 2000 years ago. He was a very powerful TEACHER. I've reserved judgement on the diety part of the history though. I fully believe that were he to be reincarnated here in the US the fundamentalists (his own people, by their belief) would be instrumental in his demise, as the Jews (his own people)were in ancient times. Religion has perverted what he taught beyond recognition. I believe he would be mortified by his elevation to diety at the expense the perversion of what he believed and tried to teach.

Following the Crucifixtion, the appostles were divided into opposing groups. That is one reason why in the new testament there are 3-4 books directly attributed to his former disciples. Those we don't really hear about were practicing Gnostics: a sect that takes it's name from the Greek word Gnosis, To Know. The gnostics were systematically eradicated by the Romans and the early Church because their essentially anarchistic nature defied herding like sheep and made them difficult to monitor and control.

Gnosticsm had no preachers or central authority. When meeting they would select from among themselves at random to speak with all members input being as valid as any other. One of the most basic ideas was that enlightenment was an individual journey and that no one could attain it through anyone other than themselves.

In the New Testament, in the book of John is the line that the Fundamentalists always use to reinforce their Dogma: "I am the truth, the way and the light, there is way to the Father but by me." In the eyes of the christian this means salvation comes only through Jesus. In the eyes of the Gnostic this means there is no way but by myself.

Information on Gnosticsm is hard to come by, but it is out there.

An interesting fact that is reinforced by the Dead Sea Scrolls is that of the Virgin Birth. During Biblical times it was customary for couples planning to marry to cohabitate for a period as a trial of compatibility. If a child was concieved during this trial it was commonly refered to as a virgin birth. There were apparently a great many virgin births during those times. Did you ever wonder why Mary was travelling with her husband Joseph and she was a VIRGIN having a child.

Back to the basis of the thread. When considering Jesus as a teacher a couple of his great lessons answer the original question. "Faith without works is dead": It doesn't matter what you say you believe if you don't live the way you believe. "The road to hell is paved with good intensions"; or we are judged on our ACTIONS rather than our WORDS. Either way it would indicate that whether you knew about him or not, believed in him or not, if you live well and add to life rather than take from it you should be OK.

In the early '90s when I lived in Huntington Beach I used to hangout with a couple of friends on Main Street sipping coffee and solving the problems of the universe. On the weekends the place was crawling with partying jerks and a like number of crusading Christians. At the time I was still playing in a couple of different bands and had hair down to my waist. So a guy has long hair and is sitting drinking coffe on a Friday night: obviously lost in sin. For whatever reason the Christians would always single me out to try to convert. I never met one of them that had read the whole Bible, or even came close to knowing much beyond the basic stuff you always hear. It got to the point where I would ask them if they'd read it front to back and thay would always say "no". I'd tell them to read it and then talk to me. I would refuse to even discuss it with someone who was unarmed.

After some years of searching for some sort of answers I am further from them than ever. Through the process I came to have great deal of respect for the teachings of a man who walked the Earth 2000 years ago and yet futher from his followers and their churches than I ever had dreamed of being. It's more important to live well than to talk about doing it.

I guess I've wound out enough for one night.

eso

[worthless]

Good stuff, eso.

While I was in school I also read the Bible cover to cover and studied it quite extensively. I actually have studied the book of Revelation the most (it was required in my high school - isn't that wierd). Anyway, I currently am that "long-hair" sitting around a coffee shop discussing the world's problems - and many many many times have those same 'crusaders' approached me and my lost soul.

Now in my studies, we looked at Revelations and what it's symbolic meaning was. Never ever, taking it to be a 'truth' of what is to come. And if anyone with any common sense were to read the book with any understanding of not only who wrote it, but when it was written and who it was written for, they would understand that it is not a prediction of the future, but a historical account of what has already happened. (To a certain extent). Granted, that is just one person's view....

With that said....
I was dining at a little cafe in town and I got up to pay. I pull out a credit card and start to pay the cashier. Well, this guy behind me starts to tell me that credit cards are the "mark of the Beast." I thought he was kidding - making some comment about how credit cards are the downfall of man. He wasn't.

So he continues to follow me out the cafe and down the street, preaching about how I need to repent because I, clearly, am under the Beast's spell. At that point I asked him if he ever actually read the book of Revelations. So he starts to quote it to me word for word. At that point I actually lost consciousness from the stupidity.....not really

So I asked him if understood what the mark of the beast really meant. He just started telling me to repent. Mind you, he is still following me down the street. So I began on my own rant about how the mark was actually a certified stamp (or coin) that resemble the Roman Emperor and was used to allow a merchant to particpate in commerce. It was also a way of swearing allegance to the Emperor. With that said, Christians were persecuated for 1) not swearing allegance to the emperor and 2) not being able to obtain said coins/stamps, thus not being able to participate in any commerce. So this "mark" was a symbol of the roman empire who were persecuting the christians, thus the empire was percieved as this great 'evil'. It was not Satan himself, but Nero that was the beast.

He just stared at me.....turned around and walked away. I would kill to know what he was thinking - lol.



I'll stop now. I'm sure you've had enough and besides I have to wash this darn mark off my left hand and forehead......... ;D ;D ;D

[rick1776]

Worthless & Eso,

I am not worthy of having started this thread. Please forgive me. I have seen the light and it enimates from you two. Please allow me to follow you in blind unquestioning obedience. For then I shall be saved.

Funny how it only takes somone with a little knowledge and sence of direction and soon you end up having followers. Soon thereafter the leader having to all intents and purposes inital good intentions soon goes off the rails.

Life of Brian:
Stop following me, you are all individuals.
Yes we are ALL individuals.
I'm not

The irony is beautiful.

cheers
rick1776

[eso]

Rick,
Before my business took control of my life, I was immersed in working on my Gallery art exhibitions as well as doing a great deal of creative writing. One of the subjects that I've devoted a great deal of time to studying is Truth or percieved truth as it is disseminated through the media.

My second solo art exhibit was titled:
"The Definitive History of the World, Revised"

It dealt with the nature of recorded history and the subjective nature of it's documentation as necessarily influenced by different historians.

Along those lines I also wrote a novella titled "Merchandising the Crucfixtion" in which I used the book as Acts as the outline, and particularly the missionary travels of Saul of Tarsus, who inexplicably changes his name to Paul and is primarily responsible for Chritainity as we know it. It's a silly little book that reinterprets all of the motivations of Saul and is intended as a ludicrous antithesis of the boof of Acts. I've created a scenario where the word spead has more to do with manipulation and marketing saavy than any thing spiritual. Nearly every sentence in the novella has a foot note reference to the book, chapter and verse in the New Testament which has been reinterpreted.

Believe it or not, I'm far to much of an optimist to be a true cynic, but an exceedingly sarcastic black humor is fairly central to my personality.

eso