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Post by Henrik on Apr 25, 2003 6:14:43 GMT -5
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Post by smokingun on Apr 25, 2003 6:19:31 GMT -5
some cat lover this guy turned out to be!!. i hope he is put on trial and if found guilty, he should meet the same fate that he subjected the poor animals too. starving an animal to death on purpose, grrr what can be sicker than that.
smokingun
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Post by glendo on Apr 25, 2003 12:28:45 GMT -5
sadly mankind destroying one of natures most beautiful creatures  |
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Post by OT on Apr 25, 2003 22:10:39 GMT -5
If there is one thing I hate more than drivers disobeying double waved yellows - it's cruelty to animals.
Anyone that displays cruelty toward animals should be shot first and asked questions later!!!
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Post by JWK on Apr 25, 2003 23:35:18 GMT -5
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Post by Danny Boy on Apr 26, 2003 4:42:55 GMT -5
Whilst having a cup of coffee with my wife yesterday morning, the TV was on with Fashion TV showing. Now I have no problem with F. TV, the models are look good and the music is OK, however a programme came on called "Summer Fur" so I asked my wife to turn it over. I had just asked a second time when a model came on wearing a Leopards Skin Fur, my tone totally changed to a "Turn that F###ing programme over". I said sorry to my wife for the violent tone in my voice (after she had turned the TV over) but I was quite amazed at how little it took to get into, what was, a quite violent frame of mind.
I will admit in the past I have followed women (with or without their husbands/partners) down streets in London being verbally abusive if they were wearing anything that was once a live and wild animal, especially, if that animal happened to be on an endangered list.
So the point of my post is, what makes others fly of the handle, to a point whereby they would commit a criminal act.
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Post by who won on Apr 26, 2003 9:52:48 GMT -5
Are you a vegetarian?
Do you wear leather?
is it acceptable to kill to eat but not for clothing?
Do we have to eat animals? there is no need for it, in fact there is more evidence suggesting we're better off as individuals and as a world in terms of food production if we were all just vegetarians
If we do not have to eat meat then eating it is merely a personal preference for self gratification, just as wearing a fur coat might be. We dont need either
Is fur murder?
Is meat murder?
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Post by Danny Boy on Apr 26, 2003 10:37:58 GMT -5
If you choose to eat meat that is specifically grown to provide for that particular food source, then that is your choose. If there were no demand for meat, then none of the animals you are concerned about would have been bred in the first place.
Much the same can be said about leather products that are, by and large, made as a by-product of the meat trade. Crocodile skins etc., even if farm bred, are a different issue.
If you think, that just because mankind has the artificial power to kill an animal, that has been bred and living in the wild, just to wear there skin/fur to suit your own vanity. Then you have to accept that people like me, have the same choice to physically attack and kick the shit out of you, because I/we have the power to do so.
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Post by who won on Apr 26, 2003 16:09:09 GMT -5
So its simply down to rearing then. If the fur were to have been specifically bred for that purpose it would be okay?
I find that argument which I have heard countless times kind of ridiculous. Just because the purpose had been pre determined for that animal by man to be eatne then it makes it okay to kill it kind of ridiculous.
If we breed humans for body parts is that acceptable to kill them when they are fully grown? Okay forget that one, but what about the animal? It didnt want to be eaten just because some farmer reared it that way.
It wanted to live in the wild, it would probably rather have never been born than have to be killed so you can eat it.
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Post by who won on Apr 26, 2003 16:10:54 GMT -5
we may be capable of eating meat, but we dont have to. Besides, we're not strictly omnivores as we typically have to cook the animal meat first otherwise we'd have a hell of a problem digesting any of it, as it is, we dont properly digest red meat
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Post by Danny Boy on Apr 27, 2003 1:14:54 GMT -5
I cannot agree with factory farming, on the other hand, if an animal is bred on a farm and leads a stress free and natural life until the day it is killed, that is a lot better deal than 75% of the human race get. You have to concede, that an animal bred for the diner table, is unaware of the final destiny, even as it is being led down to the slaughter man.
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Post by who won on Apr 27, 2003 10:03:58 GMT -5
In an ideal world Danny boy, The truth is very different. Animals bred for meat or for any food production do not live this idealised world you suggest. Far from it apart from perhaps a few ethical farms, even then, once they sell them and take them to the slaughter house the animals suffer tremendously
Ever seen the conditions in a slaughter house? There is significanct evidence that the animals go through enormous stress prior to being killed.
You'd really have to either watch a documentary or see first hand what the animals go through to understand.
As for their perfect existence? not even slightly, seen them being transported around, jammed into cages (like animals). Kept in penns, fed other animal protein instead of what they're designed to eat. Injected with hormones.
fact is intensive farming techniques which is where most meat production comes from is not about treating animals with care.
As it is, your argument about the animal living in the wild then falls down very quickly.
First, it doesn't matter where the animal is born it will have an instinct to live in the wild, or the conditions normally associated with the free species. So saying they were bred in a farm makes it alright does not make a lot of sense. The farm animal is less lucky as it was born into a captive un natural exisitence.
As for the animlas in the wild, they had their chance to live (for a while at least) as nature intended unlike their poor farmed brethren.
Then the point you made was that those animals who had been farmed would not be aware of their fate on the dinner table, I put it that the animal killed for fur while it was in the wild would be equally unaware until they day they killed it.
I fail to see how one is more acceptable than the other. They are either both acceptable, or neither.
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Post by smokingun on Apr 28, 2003 4:29:31 GMT -5
who won,
i agree with you about eating meat. i would rather be a vegetarian by choice then eat a steak knowing that some poor animal was brutalised for me to eat it. make no mistakes folks, 99.99% of the animal on farms are brutalised. i love steak, with pepper sauce and fried onions. but as a human, i have the choice to choose. we think of animals as dumb, but they have feelings just as we do. have you ever witnessed a calf dancing in the rain?? what pure unadulterated joy. those of us who keep dogs as pets, know when our dogs are happy or feeling low. we can distinguish between our dogs based on their bark, and further i know when my dogs are barking playfully, or when a stranger is at my gate. my point is that animals have a right to live just as we do.
eating meat is perfectly acceptable if one does not have a choice. but choosing to eat a steak because i "like the taste" of it bothers me. and here in india, the scenario is much much worse. cows to be slaughtered are made to walk a distance of ~ 4 km from Belgaum to Goa. when they read Goa, they look miserable, the hide clinging to their bones. they are then fed for some weeks (maybe even given steroids) and slaughtered in the most inhumane manner. pigs are bred locally, but their fate isn't any better. how many times have i fought with myself because part of me wanted to stop the butchers from slaughtering a pig, by paying for the animal. unfortunately i do not own a farm so i can't make a difference yet.
and eating of veal (i think that is what meat from a calf is called) or pigling or any other animal that hasn't had a chance to grow is both a sin and a crime IMO. i do hesitate to abuse anyone who does this.
using animal hides as a fashion satements is just so pathetic. how the fuck can anybody look good wearing part of a dead carcass?? it is so sick.
i could go on and on, this is a topic that i feel very very strongly about. i am among those that equate poaching with murder, and would demand that the bastards fry for what they do. and chinese impotent men who need tiger bones to "perform" get nothing but my scorn. thank god for people like jackie chan who are trying to make a difference for the better.
just as parents have an obligation to look after their children, so to do we have such an obligation to protect other species.
smokingun
p.s. who won, you have contibuted a lot to this forum. why not take the plunge and join us as a member?
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Post by smokingun on Apr 28, 2003 5:00:57 GMT -5
ruby2,
no one can tell you or your son what you'll can eat and what you'll can't. i will ask you though to spare a though for the poor defenceless animals who are brutalised so that you can "enjoy" your meals. the final choice is yours.
and being someone who is opinionated, i put people who eat meat for the pleasure of eating meat, in the same bracket as those who kill animals for kicks as in sport or for their fur. it would be hypocracy to consider yourself a warm caring humane person, if you pleasure yourself of the brutality to a poor defenceless animal.
smokingun
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Post by JWK on Apr 28, 2003 6:36:43 GMT -5
I eat meat because i like the taste, but also because it gives me the sustenance my body needs to be healthy. Pretty much only cow and chicken though, (although heaven only knows what is in the sausages and meat pies i eat occasionally) as i dont really like pork. (the cows in NZ have a pretty decent time, lazing about in paddocks all day eating grass, conversing with sheep; and they are put down humanely by the farmers with a single blow to the head)
Do you eat eggs Smokingun? Battery hens are some of the most appaulingly kept animals there are, they have theyre beaks cut off and are often left to rot if they die...in the middle of a 2x2meter cage with 100+ other hens.
Do you consider eating eggs as in the same bracket?
(personally i only eat freerange eggs, and buy most of my meat from an organic butcher up the road)
I believe people can eat meat if they wish, but it is up to the whole of humanity to recognise a sense of morals in the way these animals are kept.
PS. Traditional Papua New Guineans sometimes practice cannibalism.
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Don't Die Before You Live...
