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Post by Srrh on May 7, 2003 9:04:46 GMT -5
It had to happen:
Colombian rebels began shooting hostages as soon as they heard military helicopters flying overhead, one of the captives said, describing a botched rescue attempt in which a state governor, a former defense minister and eight soldiers were killed.
Colombian President Alvaro Uribe took responsibility for the failed jungle raid in an emotional television address late Monday during which he asked for the nation's support in Colombia's fight on terrorism.
But despite a growing public clamor to swap jailed guerrillas for dozens of remaining hostages including a presidential candidate and three Americans Colombia's military commander vowed Tuesday to push ahead with more rescue operations.(sic)
Uribe: Listen to your people !! Or You might as well shoot every hostage in the head yourself!!!!
There is NO MILITARY solution.
FREE INGRID BETANCOUR!!!
S....
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Post by Mo on May 7, 2003 11:01:38 GMT -5
Srrh,
I don't know how close you are to the social-olitical situation of Colombia.
Sadly, the latest masacre only adds to the thousands of people killed in a guerrilla war that has lasted over 50 years (the incident that fired the violence ocurred on 9th April 1949, when the populist leader of the 'liberal' party was killed in the streets of Bogota, during a public speech.)
During over 50 years there have been too many truces, too many dialogues, and far too much blood.
If information from international intelligence is believable, guerrillas and paramilitary forces finance themselves by producing hard drugs, and demanding the farming of Coca trees and wild puppies... They are basically enormous criminal organisations with no social aim!
There will be no peaceful solution for the simple fact that those people are drug lords. Do you know that one of their points of discussion is a UN resolution legalizing hard drugs globally? That's how serious some of those people are (FARC.)
The average middle class urban Colombian citizen would rather have an international military presence in the country, helping the guvernment, than having the country given to the violents.
As for Ingrid Betancourt, it was her own decision, as a presidential candidate spin movement to attract voters, to pay a visit to the guerrillas when she was kidnapped. I am sorry to be hard about this, but she might as well have died long ago.
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Post by PabsInAHurry on May 7, 2003 11:56:23 GMT -5
Srrh,
I don't have a whole lot of time these days to post so I can't write much.
However, suffice it to say that I am 100% behind every attempt to rescue kidnapping victims. This one went awfully wrong either at the tactical level or the operational level even though no shits were fired by the military. I haven't had time to get any info on this, but I'll see what I can get.
Either way, more often than not, rescue missions in Colombia go rather well. And to tell you the truth, I'd much rather have a government like Uribe's that is not afraid to stand his ground, as opposed to a pussy like Pastrana. The problem is that these are the cases that make the front page, but what about every other operation by the GAULA that ended in the rescue of someone who had been kidnapped by the FARC? How come we are not talking about those?
And as far as I know, most people in Colombia DO NOT want this humanitarian exchange of prisioners. To begin with, it is a flawed concept since it does not involve every victim being held hostage by the FARC, only militay personnel and a few politicians. Also, the FARC requiere the government to remove all military and government presence from the area where the exchange is to take place. Well, Pastrana tried something similar and we all know how that went. In addition, why does the government have to negotiate something as basic as the freedom of its people with a bunch of delinquents? The FARC are not a political organization. They are terrorists and drug-dealers. They do not want peace. They are a bunch of murderers and what happened in the last few days should make it very obvious to just about everyone.
As for Ingrid Betancour, yeah I hope she comes back alive. But I'm with Mo on this one: what she did was rather stupid and it shouldn't surprise anyone that she got taken hostage by the guerrillas. The government and the military even warned her not to do it. But she went ahead and did it. I mean...I know certain neighborhoods here in Austin are dangerous, so do I go there and start flashing my gold necklace? or do I start waving money around? Of course not!! I'd get robbed if I did. Of course it shouldn't happen and I don't deserve it, but that's exactly what would happen. That's what Ingrid did.
Sorry Srrh, but now more than ever I stand behind my President and the Armed Forces of Colombia. It is not the time to talk when those bastards do not have the will to talk.
Why should we have to live on our knees?
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Post by Oops on May 7, 2003 11:57:56 GMT -5
Srrh, However, suffice it to say that I am 100% behind every attempt to rescue kidnapping victims. This one went awfully wrong either at the tactical level or the operational level even though no shots were fired by the military. No Shots...although I am sure the FARC were shitting their pants. That's why they murdered those 10 people.
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Post by Srrhreadsthemedia on May 7, 2003 14:44:30 GMT -5
Bogota's El Tiempo calls the killing "an atrocious crime" and warns it will have "profound repercussions" for the country's future.
"Such an enormously sad and horrible incident... will have unforeseen consequences for the armed conflict, putting in jeopardy negotiations between the government and the rebels to exchange hostages for jailed guerrillas."
El Tiempo blames the rebels of the Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia (FARC) for taking the men hostage and putting their lives in danger in the first place.
But the government also comes in for criticism for its failed rescue attempt. "The government cannot fail to consider the cost of an operation which had exactly the opposite effect than that desired."
The newspaper fears the killings will lead to "increasing polarisation between an even more radicalised rebel movement which prefers its hostages dead rather than rescued and a government seeking to break their spine and more inclined to attempt rescue missions than negotiate".
"And polarisation between a majority redoubling their calls for total war and a minority seeking a negotiated solution in spite of everything. An immensely sad and disturbing situation".
Another Bogota daily, El Espectador, highlights the recent defection of a senior FARC commander, arguing it generated a message that the rebel cause is "useless and sterile".
"This is the biggest political hiding the government has given this rebel group in recent years - it is devastating for the FARC," the editorial proclaims.
It calls on both FARC leaders and the government to embark on "a more aggressive path to peace, opening true paths of understanding" between them.
In El Espectador, the wife of murdered governor Guillermo Gaviria, Yolanda Pinto, speaks movingly of reconciliation in the face of death.
"I still don't know who killed them, but whoever it was, I offer them my pardon and my desire for reconciliation.
There will not be enough soldiers to contain the wave of violence which will devastate the country
Commentator in El Universal "This country is big and beautiful and we should all work together to build a just nation," she says.
"If the pain which today overwhelms me serves to move the country forward, I offer it without reservation, knowing it would make Guillermo happy."
A commentator in the Cartagena daily El Universal launches a scathing attack on the country's rich and powerful, holding them responsible for what he sees as the huge inequalities at the root of Colombia's woes.
Lazaro Vivero Paniza condemns "the country's rich who made their fortune through their misdemeanours... they are now the owners, the gentlemen who hold power."
"They run the country on a whim, stashing their property in Swiss banks while we Colombians assassinate each other without any hint of sanity."
Mr Vivero warns that if the huge economic disparity between the few haves and the many have-nots is not tackled, "there will not be enough soldiers to contain the wave of violence which will devastate the country".
He calls for the government and rebels to work to reach an accord for the release of the remaining hostages, which he says numbers over 3,000.
See...I am not the only one....
PS to Mo and Pabs: The FARC DID warn they'd shoot the hostages. They did. I saw interviews of a few hostage's familly last night on the BBC, and they looked more pissed at Uribe then at the FARC. They were pretty much all calling for a "humanitarian swap"...one for one sort of deal...They were also bitchin that they had not been consulted by government before it acted: doh!!
So this is my plan (pabs always complained I had none): swap prisoners and start over again. At least those 3000 will be saved. "But there will be no end to the violence" you might object. True, but in the present situation, their is none anyway!! Let's at least save the ones we can. As for the 3000 FARC members to be free...seems to me they can always be shot another day.
S.....
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Post by pabs on May 7, 2003 15:04:51 GMT -5
Srrh,
Short reply while I have time to digest everything you said, but you do know that Uribe offered a straight swap: all guerrilleros for all kidnapped but that's not what the FARC want.
Go look for Uribe's proposal in Monday or Tuesday's El Tiempo and compare it with FARC's proposal. I think you'll like Uribe's more.
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Post by SennaRules on May 7, 2003 15:12:48 GMT -5
1)I don't know how close you are to the social-olitical situation of Colombia. 2)During over 50 years there have been too many truces, too many dialogues... 3)They are basically enormous criminal organisations with no social aim! 4)The average middle class urban Colombian citizen would rather have an international military presence in the country, helping the guvernment, than having the country given to the violents. Mo, 1)It's historical. I am at a "Fuck the FARC" point in my life. But it wasn't always the case. I have been interested since I moved to south america...begining of the 80s 2)There can never be too many truce or too many dialogues. Those might be sterile, as you rightly point out, but at least, while they go on, no one gets killed. 3)In 2003, you might very well be right. But historically, I have to respectfully disagree. The social situation in Columbia 50 years ago was an excelent breeding ground for a revolution. Why do you beleive it was so easy for the FARC to recruit? No it wasn't fear; people were fed up with the social and economical injustices. Is it better today? No, but at that time (50 years ago) they thought it would. Saying "it always had criminal aims" is, I find, an insult for all of those who joined the FARC 50 years ago, in order to see a more just Columbia. At the time many of those people only had one love: country. Granted, most of those original ideologist are today either dead, or gone, disgusted by today's FARC. 4)As pretty much elswhere in the world, I am sure they'd rather have...neither. Good to hear from you... PS To Pabs; re: the analogy about flashing your dough and gold chain...but you do agree it shouldn't happen right? So who is at fault, you or the people robbing you ? I say the people robbing you. PS of the PS: I liked Pastrana better, but I am sure you knew that. Either way, both of you can rest assured that I on modern day FARC. That being said, I think Macho Uribe is part of the problem, not the solution. Take care. I remain, Srrh
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Post by Mo on May 7, 2003 15:14:49 GMT -5
The previos president of Colombia, Andres Pastrana, lasted his 4-year mandate talking to the guerrillas, he even gave then about 35% of the territory of the country as a 'demilitarized zone' In 2000, while he was still the president...
Those murderous criminals ought to be stopped.
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Post by Srrhnotinformed on May 7, 2003 15:20:50 GMT -5
you do know that Uribe offered a straight swap: all guerrilleros for all kidnapped but that's not what the FARC want. Go look for Uribe's proposal in Monday or Tuesday's El Tiempo and compare it with FARC's proposal. I think you'll like Uribe's more. Uh? For real ? WTF ? That PISSES ME OFF TO NO END!! I had no heard about that "straight swap"...Monday or tuesday you say...I'll go check... Thanks man... S....
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Post by SenRRH on May 7, 2003 15:31:07 GMT -5
The previos president of Colombia, Andres Pastrana, lasted his 4-year mandate talking to the guerrillas, he even gave then about 35% of the territory of the country as a 'demilitarized zone' I know Mo, I know. But the violence picked up (again), although it had never completly stoped, with Uribe's arrival. And who gets cought in the middle? Certainly not either side. But civilians on the other hand... ...as long as people talk, they generally don't shoot....generally being the key word here.... & S....
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Post by Mo on May 7, 2003 15:40:26 GMT -5
Sadly SrrH, I don't remember in my lifespan (and I wasn't born yesterday) a peaceful 365 days in Colombia... I consider it perfectly naive that those absurd pretensions of the FARC would ever be agreed (particularly about drug crops and hard drug legalisation.) They are not fighting for a social goal, they just want blood.
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Post by pabs on May 7, 2003 16:12:11 GMT -5
Srrh,
I am looking for it as well but the main 3 points Uribe proposed were:
1. Straight swap all for all 2. The released guerrillas would not commit any more crimes. 3. There would be no de-militarized zones.
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Post by pabs on May 16, 2003 17:08:52 GMT -5
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Post by Srrh on May 22, 2003 8:01:24 GMT -5
Well, doesn't it proove my point ? It was a proposal of Vèlez, not Uribe... hehehe, I am kidding....
Over all, it's a proposal by the powers in place, no doubt. Let's wait and see. It looks pretty valid to me...but then again, I am not a member of the FARC (I realize that with all me drivel, it might not be so obvious to all.lol)
S....
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Post by Srrh on Jul 16, 2003 8:05:06 GMT -5
I am not particularly suportive of the right wing (to say the least), but this time:
The Colombian Government and the main right-wing paramilitary group have agreed to start formal talks aimed at disarming about 10,000 gunmen. In a joint statement, the government and the United Self-Defense Forces of Colombia (AUC) said all of the group's fighters would begin disarming at the end of the year, in a process expected to last until the end of 2005.
The paramilitaries have been a major force in Colombia's civil war since the 1980s, fighting left-wing rebels groups.
The move was announced as President Alavaro Uribe temporarily relocated to one of Colombia's worst war zones, to demonstrate his determination to restore the state's authority.
The agreement with the AUC marks the first time the government has said it would negotiate with the group - which has been blamed for some of the worst atrocities in Colombia's civil war.
The AUC - like the leftist FARC and ELN - is on the United States' list of terrorist organisations, and the Americans have repeatedly asked for the extradition of its leader, Carlos Castano.
"Their moment in history has ended... They are undesirable for the country, and the moment for their demobilisation has come," said chief government negotiator Luis Carlos Restrepo.
The joint statement said the authorities would help integrate former paramilitary fighters into civilian life.
If the right decides to grow a heart, the left is in deep shit.lol
Good Job by the gov. and the AUC (although I don't think the governmnent sould issue "joined statments" with terrorist groups...). Uribe scored a goal for peace: no doubt in my mind.
Srrh
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