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Post by justan on Jul 28, 2003 11:59:35 GMT -5
SG I agree with you totally well almost totally. A religion is no more a crutch than another person's belief system is a crutch for them.
Like in any human enterprise there are the extremes at both ends and the middle ground.
In religion one has the likes of Mother Thersa at one end and the Islamic Jihad types at the other. Most would of course fall somewhere in between.
Calling some of these middle people stupid or whatever is just thinking that one has found the answer while the others are still searching or whatever. How self-centered and egotistical is that?
IMO as long as they(any belief system) does not infringe upon my rights I say live and let live. Personally I don't really mind if some one tries to convert me once in awhile.
regards
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Post by justin on Jul 28, 2003 13:10:23 GMT -5
Let me just add that each on us are somewhere on the path of personal evolution at the point that we should be at this moment in time.
Who are we to put a judgement on another person's "progress" because in fact we don't really know where we are on this spiritual road.
regards
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Post by smokingun on Jul 29, 2003 17:15:36 GMT -5
SG - It's great that religion has made you a better person, I am really glad. I have friends who have become religious and extremely STUPID at the same time, so I guess it all depends on the person. I didn't need religion or any story book to teach me common sense to be nice and do good. Don't take it the wrong way but I feel sorry for those who needed religion to become better persons. i don't take it the wrong way. that was how i used to feel as well. sometimes as i mentioned earlier, to be a catholic means going against my nature. i cited the need to get even. i don't really know maybe people such as you are more perfect than people such as me. but for those such as me who are not so fortunate, surely religion must be a good thing if it makes us more accepting, forgiving and caring?? I was going to say something about abortion and the rights of the unborn child but I prefer not to shock you. But just a question though, to have the opinion of a religious person (and sorry if I'm drifting off topic a bit): What would you say if a woman, say in her mid 20's, told you she wanted to be sterilized to avoid unwanted pregnancies (hence a possible abortion), knowing that she cannot take any contraceptive, except for abstinence and condoms. Would you agree? Just don't give me the "she may change her mind later" routine. i am catholic, and by my own admission religious in that i beleive in God. i personally am not against a woman wanting to be sterilized. but if i were to know such a woman personally, i would feel sad for her especially if the method os sterilization is ireversible. i think or at least i hope that there is way to prevent child birth in women that can be reversed. but the loss that i would feel for this woman woud pale in comparison to the anguish that i would feel were she to have an abortion and kill a defenceless child only because the child was "an accident". i don't know what the catholic church's position is on the issue of sterilazation, and frankly i couldn't care. there are times when i have my differences with the church and issues such as this may well be one of them. i know the church is anti-contraceptive, i disagree over there as well. sure in a perfect world abstinance may be an option, but we don't live in a perfect world. as much as i would mourn the loss of life, i do not oppose an abortion if the circumstances are less than ordinary. but when 2 informed and consenting adults have unprotected sex and later murder a child, then i can't help but feel angry. surely a life cannot be so meaningless. as adults i am fairly certain that we have achieved most of our potential. but in a child, who has yet to acheive it's potential, i see so much of hope. a cure for aids perhaps, maybe a singer who will years from now move some one to tears, or maybe just a warm caring person that will make the lives of people around her just that much better. we will never know. a simple procedure, and a life is snuffed out. actually this issue has become very personal to me because a few days from now, a friend will drive his girlfriend to a clinic and "get rid of the problem". it is times like these that i really question my faith. if there is a god, why would he permit a life to be conceived when the only person who is actually concerned for the life is the dad's best friend?? for a few days i could not get myself to speak to my friend. someone i held in such high regard, whose advice i trusted, whom i could depend on had suddenly turned into this monstor. i even lost sleep over this, i felt angry and helpless, knowing that a life would be taken and that i could not stop it. but somewhere in my religion, we are taught not to judge others, and to forgive. someday hopefully i will learn why things happen the way that they do. why a king cobra will leave it's nest before the eggs hatch yet humans decide to kill their children. a foetus to some, a mass of cells to others yet the miracle of life and a living child to me. a life that on it's own wants to sustain itself. we will not hear it's plea to live, will not know of the struggle to survive even while being snuffed out. if a tree falls in a forest does it make a sound?? maybe i need to get some sleep, it's 3.40 a.m. over here, and perhaps i raised more queries than i've answered. the reason for my faith lie in events that have happened to me that i do not feel ready to discuss just yet. yes i agree with sterilization provided the woman knows what she is doing, is informed of the consequences and risks, is not being coerced in any way, and is mentally sound. smokigun
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Post by daSilva on Jul 29, 2003 17:29:11 GMT -5
The wonderful thing about faith is that you don't have to justify it to anyone. Disbelievers will always question your faith because they need to justify their own opinion.
What is, is. What will be, will be. You have the right to choose, you do not have the right to denigrate others for choosing what you didn't.
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Post by Henrik on Jul 30, 2003 2:01:49 GMT -5
The wonderful thing about faith is that you don't have to justify it to anyone. Disbelievers will always question your faith because they need to justify their own opinion. What is, is. What will be, will be. You have the right to choose, you do not have the right to denigrate others for choosing what you didn't. and vice versa..... Again, like in the other thread, it is a much more common occurence to find religious people, or believers, trying to convert non-believers than the other way around. Why is that? Ever heard of an atheist war? Ever heard of non-believers travelling to Africa or South America to try and convince the locals that there is no god?
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Post by greg99 on Jul 30, 2003 5:29:05 GMT -5
Thanks for taking the time to reply SG - I guess it all comes down to whether one considers a foetus a being or not, and we've had this debate already
I prefer losing sleep over a born child than an unborn. It seems more productive and usefull to me.
What really bothers me is the concept that when a woman dosen't have children it is viewed as a choice, as if a woman's sole purpose on earth was to bear children and she made the choice to go against her "job". I would much prefer seeing women make the deliberate choice and responsible decision to have them (and I'm talking universally here, not only in our industrialized countries). I see too many children born because it was the thing to do and then treated as a burden. And I know what I'm talking about, having examples very very very close to me.
Nevertheless, to each his own and I'll respect that. And I respect your point of view SmokinGun. You sound like you have a very good heart and I wouldn't want you to change a thing.
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Post by daSilva on Jul 30, 2003 7:36:35 GMT -5
and vice versa..... Again, like in the other thread, it is a much more common occurence to find religious people, or believers, trying to convert non-believers than the other way around. Why is that? Not where I live, it is quite unpopular these days to believe in God!
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