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Post by who won on Aug 3, 2003 17:04:03 GMT -5
The wall is there to secure the Israeli border.
People, terrorist or otherwise, should not be crossing it illegally anyway, this is an extreme means of securing it. Trouble is they need to go to extreme measures to keep out the extremists.
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Post by who won on Aug 3, 2003 17:09:31 GMT -5
with merely an illegal immigration problem, does the US not have a wired fence along the mexico border? Wheres the ranting about that wall?
Is it because it is made out of concrete and not wire that is the issue?
If so, I agree it is ugly but of course far safer than wire which can be cut.
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Post by Danny Boy on Aug 3, 2003 20:32:20 GMT -5
If they want to build a wall, let them build it on the land stolen from Palestine in 1946, not on even more stolen land and at the expense of Palestinian owned farms that have been in existence for over 500 years.
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Post by Henrik on Aug 4, 2003 1:39:29 GMT -5
I don't see them building a wall all along the Mediterranean, nor along the Lebanese border, nor along the Syrian, Jordan or Egyptian borders, yet I can assure you there illegal crossings being made along those borders as well.
Putting up a wall will in no way stop the terrorists. Instead it will accentuate the oppression the Palestinian people are feeling as they are seeing more of their land being taken away, and they are physically being walled in. This will inevitably lead to an increase in terrorist activity.
How can you possibly compare a fence along a border to walling in a country? How would you feel if you lived in a land-locked country, and the oppressive country around you decided to wall you in? And don't look at it from the terrorists point of view, but rather from the ordinary person's view.
P.S. As with what Danny Boy says, if the wall is to secure the Israeli border, they could at least build it on the Israeli side of the border.
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Post by who won on Aug 4, 2003 10:47:17 GMT -5
The position of the wall is obviously a point of contention, and they probably will need to give back some and move the wall, however thats not the issue here.
I dont believe the areas you mentioned have quite the same level of terrorist activities aimed at their civilians as Israel has, that is why there is a need for a wall. You dont think the wall will work, well, nothing else has worked. This is merely an attempt to stop illegal crossings of the border particularly by terrorists, its been going on for a long time and it got to a point where the attacks were a daily occurence, no country can live with that.
As for the rest of the ordinairy Palestinians, again, they shouyld not be illegally crossing the border at those points anyway, if they wish to cross the border into Israel, there are border crossings.
As far as I see it, it is an awful shame that such measures are required. But I think its going to be better for both sides if the Palestinians are unable to launch easy attacks into Israel then Israel wont need to launch retaliatory attacks back into Palestine.
You dont believe the wall will work, well, we will be no worse off then because nothing else has worked either.You say things will only get worse? while there is relative quiet right now, I dont see how it can get any worse than it was just a few months ago with daily attacks. The problem was the weak border. They are now securing the border. Is it the wrong border? Probably is, I agree, thats something to be worked out in discussions, The wall can always be moved, but if they dont buiild it there, then they will leave many Israeli citizens vulnerable to attack.
This is about security.
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Post by Topcontender on Aug 4, 2003 10:56:01 GMT -5
You guys see it as a wall, I see it a prison. If they wall the palastininans in, that is just like Henrik mention when the nazis walled warsaw
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Post by who won on Aug 4, 2003 11:42:36 GMT -5
Is mexico a prison?
should they just have access to cross the border wherever they please?
They are walled in by a wired fence and by security guards patrolling the border, not to mention aremed vigilantes.
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Post by Wycco on Aug 4, 2003 12:36:20 GMT -5
I do find it ironic- that Israel- artificially created in Arabia out of sympathy from the west due to a Western Powers racist regime- turned into a racist regime itself!
And then there are powerfull people like Lieberman, who is so caught up in the anti-arab rhetoric- that everytime something happens in the Middle East- he is there to leap on the muslims and offer his condemnation of the people.
Racism is a nasty- nasty thing- especially when it is between two groups- such as the jewish people and the arabs- who are, essentially, genetically identical. The fact that both groups have representatives devout to the overthrowing of the other- when the only thing that seperates them - and makes them seperate "races" is really only the artificial "name of religion".
HECK- even Jewish and Muslim religions have lots in common!
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Post by smokingun on Aug 4, 2003 13:32:07 GMT -5
they say and i now have come to beleive that: "it is better to let 10 guilty men walk free, than to hang one innocent man"
in a way this applies to the issue here as well. however the sad part is that it works both ways.
what about the innocent people that get slaughtered?? who gives a sh!t about them?? a mother with kids shot at??
a lot of innocent people will face hardships because of the wall. is the wall justified?? what if the wall did indeed stop even a single shitface from crossing over and butchering a mother and her kids only because they were jewish, would it then be justified??
what if a paestinian is sick and needs to be rushed to a hospital but the wall is in the way, will it then be justified??
there are no easy answers, for sure i cannot honestly justify if it is right or wrong. but the killing has to stop. at the given time, unless the palestinians demonstrate a willingness to honestly snuff out the terrorists, they leave the israelies little choice but to defend themselves in any manner they deem fit.
smokingun
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Post by smokingun on Aug 4, 2003 13:40:16 GMT -5
in this as in most conflicts, people from both sides tend to look to harline leaders as those with courage. it takes more courage from a leader to try and make peace then to pander to public outrage and sentiment.
having said that, it takes two hands to clap. courage in leadership and farsight from one side should be met with similar attibutes from the other if a proper solution is to be found.
we in the sub-continent learnt only too well that it is pointless trying to make peace with a people who simply hate you for being non-muslims. how can you trust someone if you know that the moment your back is turned it will be greeted with a bullet or a dagger??
smokingun
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Post by Henrik on Aug 4, 2003 14:29:58 GMT -5
Who won,
Perhaps if the wall doesn't work, they could try nuking Palestine. Let's be realistic here, if they exterminate all Palestinians, there will be no more Palestinian terrorists. Problem solved....
Don't you see where this is leading? There are people living there that are not terrorists. Should they be walled in?
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Post by Topcontender on Aug 5, 2003 8:00:42 GMT -5
Bush administration officials are considering a reduction in loan guarantees to Israel as a penalty for constructing a security fence to separate Israelis from Palestinian areas. Congress authorized more than a decade ago cuts in U.S. aid to Israel by the amount the Jewish state spent on settling Jews on the West Bank and in Gaza. The dollar-for-dollar formula now might be applied to the $9 billion in loan guarantees over three years and $1 billion in military aid approved last spring to help compensate Israel for the economic impact of the war with Iraq ------------------------------------------------ There ya go, dubya is doing something you guys like!
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Post by smokingun on Aug 5, 2003 13:15:36 GMT -5
There are people living there that are not terrorists. Should they be walled in? no they shouldn't. now if there were no terrorists from among them crossng over and killing mothers and babies, would they be walled in?? i do not support the wall, but i can understand why israel feels the need to protect it's people. the killing must stop. smokingun
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Post by greg99 on Aug 5, 2003 16:22:20 GMT -5
Then I guess you would have no problem if Bush built a wall around Manhattan and the Pentagon, would you? You're not making sense, who won. The wall is indeed a prison and it is quite insulting to see the Israeli trying to make us believe it is for security. Will the Israeli terrorist be able to cross the border and launch attacks on the Palestinians? Why couldn't they? They have every right in a country they have stolen, to quote DB (and I agree with that).
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Post by who won on Aug 5, 2003 19:07:07 GMT -5
If every day a terrorist was walking in from New Jersey and blowing himself up in Manhattan killing 20 or 30 people and leaving a hundred others maimed with missing limbs, I think I might support a wall around Manhattan.
Luckily for us, none of us live in that situation.
I can tell you though, after 9-11, I am happy to be put through far longer lines far more stringent security disallowing me from being dropped off in the terminal building etc for the sake of security. Is it enough yet, I dont think so, but its a good start.
Henrik
Please treat me with a bit of respect. I am not suggesting nuking anyone. We are talking about securing a border. Palestinians good or bad should not be crossing a border at non border crossings anyway. This ensures they cannot.
they are not imprisoned, they can cross the border in the same crossings they could have done before legally. They can cross the border to other nations too.
Does it make the situation of crossing into Israel more difficult? Yes it does. Is that a good thing for both sides, if it helps to prevent attacks then it is a good thing for peaceful Palestinians and Israelis because hopefully the peace talks can move forward in a period of relative peacefulness. Will it stop every attack, no of course not, there is anot a security measure in the world that has ever stopped every attack but it can stop more than it lets through.
Now, is the wall in the right place? Probably not. Hopefully they can discuss the right place for it, and when that time comes they can deconstruct the wall and move it.
By the way, it is actually Israel that is being walled in, not the Palestinians, they are being walled out..
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